Is piracy a serious issue for game developers?

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Korimyr the Rat said:
I'm rather comfortable with the thread being closed now-- or simply fading into obscurity-- but I wouldn't want this to happen without Falkus, or Storm Raven, or yourself getting the opportunity to address my last post-- if any of you desire to. I think the conversation has reached its natural conclusion.

Why would I bother to respond? Your last post was almost entirely devoid of content, being more in the line of entirely unfounded speculation. For example, your speculation concerning the course of WWI had the U.S. not become involved is, as far as I can tell, based on nothing whatsoever.
 

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Turjan said:
It's quite different in Britain, though. But their Gini index is more similar to that one of the US, anyway. Plus, they are not really famous for their public health system :D.

Traditionally we've had mostly bad healthcare, but cheap - around 6% of GDP, where the US spends 14%. The government has raised spending a lot recently, not much visible improvement yet though.
Personally I prefer the UK system to US only because in an emergency like a car accident, I will get healthcare, and I won't get billed thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for it. This is a big worry when my American wife & I go on holiday to USA, we buy travel insurance but hospitals don't "recognise" it, as I found out once when I was hit by crippling back pain in Mississippi.

Edit: We went to a medical centre. Receptionist:

"The doctor charges $100 consultation fee".
 
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Storm Raven said:
Why would I bother to respond?

How am I to know what you will or will not bother to respond to? I just wanted to make sure you got the chance to reply, if it was your intention to do so-- since I doubted I would have anything further to say.

As for "unfounded speculation", I could have used other examples, but I preferred to stick to the one given to me. I'm not willing to dig up more credible historical speculation about the World Wars in order to justify a position on intellectual property law-- particularly for an argument which I am under no illusion can be settled.

Falkus said:
I've said everything that needs to be said.

Well, then, it's been a pleasure; you held your end of the argument well.
 

Then there is the free distribution of "abandonware" games-- games that are no longer for sale and are typically at least five years old. That is just as illegal as distributing new games, and just as much the acquisition of something-for-nothing-- and generally as undesired by the designers and publishers of newer games. It's hard, however, to claim that this activity harms game publisher.

Its not hard at all.

The "abandonware" position assumes that those games are valueless because nobody is planning to bring them back...an utterly unprovable position. How long had Centipede been commercially unavailable before Ed Logg's classic was reborn as a 3D game on 4 different platforms (largely through the efforts of Richard Rouse III)?

With both tabletop and computer games, I see the same games appear under the same or different names all the time. For instance, the venerable game "Asteroids" is currently sitting in my games file under a different name (Maelstrom, Hemi-roids), as are versions of Time Pilots (Wingnuts), Tetris, Star Trek and others. Some of them have taken themes and change the setting- like the Escape Velocity games did with Autoduel or a Christmas/Santa themed version of Defender. I have even seen an old Apple IIe game called Broadsides (ship vs ship in the era of 3 masted battleships, including boarding parties) that has been copied at least 4 times. The tabletop games Roborally, Star Fleet Battles, Nuclear War and OGRE/G.E.V. have been out of print at least once if not several times, only to return to publication. RPG's frequently go out of print only to be republished, pheonix-like. MechWarrior/Battletech? Space 1889? Traveller? Talisantha?

If nothing else, those newer versions potentially bite into the market for the original games, should the holders of the IP rights decide to re-publish them.

+++

S'mon, you just got caught up in the Great American Insurance War. Many insurance companies are trying all kinds of tactics to minimize payments for services rendered. Some randomly choose to deny payments on chronic treatments, like allergy shots. Others routinely pay less than the treatments cost. One HMO contract I just reviewed for my father complied with the letter of the law about compliance in processing paperwork...but had no explicit promise to PAY after the paperwork had been processed.

Result- Doctors try to get as much up front as they can or refuse to deal with certain companies.

Oh, and before we get to it...we DO get screwed on pharmaceuticals costs, no questions about it. Essentially, US citizens are subsidizing lower medicine costs in a lot of the world.
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
The "abandonware" position assumes that those games are valueless because nobody is planning to bring them back...an utterly unprovable position. How long had Centipede been commercially unavailable before Ed Logg's classic was reborn as a 3D game on 4 different platforms (largely through the efforts of Richard Rouse III)?

Ah, but do you think that the free distribution of the antique 2d version would, in any conceivable fashion, limit sales of the newer 3d version? The only way I can see it influencing sales one way or another is by exposing people to the original, classic games-- possibly making them curious about the new version.

Dannyalcatraz said:
With both tabletop and computer games, I see the same games appear under the same or different names all the time. For instance, the venerable game "Asteroids" is currently sitting in my games file under a different name (Maelstrom, Hemi-roids), as are versions of Time Pilots (Wingnuts), Tetris, Star Trek and others.

How many of them are released by the company that released the original version, however?

If anything, you are describing third parties making commercially parasitic use of existing IP-- without compensating the original creators. What is the difference between an original-but-abandoned title, a freeware play-alike, and a third-party ripoff, from the original creator's point of view?

Dannyalcatraz said:
The tabletop games Roborally, Star Fleet Battles, Nuclear War and OGRE/G.E.V. have been out of print at least once if not several times, only to return to publication. RPG's frequently go out of print only to be republished, pheonix-like. MechWarrior/Battletech? Space 1889? Traveller? Talisantha?

Tabletop and roleplaying games are quite another issue-- since age is much less of a detriment to roleplaying games and no detriment whatsoever to board games. A board game can be reprinted in its original format at any time, and roleplaying games do not typically become obsolete until a new and generally incompatible revision is released.

An electronic game is dead property the second its sequel is released, or with a few limited exceptions, after five or six years of its original release. Even if re-released, it is highly unlikely there are going to be any significant sales for free distribution to damage.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
The "abandonware" position assumes that those games are valueless because nobody is planning to bring them back...an utterly unprovable position. How long had Centipede been commercially unavailable before Ed Logg's classic was reborn as a 3D game on 4 different platforms (largely through the efforts of Richard Rouse III)?

Do you know what you are talking about? Take Quake and GTA (Grand Theft Auto). You can download Quake 1, Quake 2 and the source code for Quake 3 from Id Softwares own webpage. The same thing with GTA 1 and GTA 2, you can download these games from Rockstars own site. Still, Quake 4 will soon be released and GTA: San Andreas sells like crazy. Gamers will certainly don't play GTA 1 _instead_ of San Andreas.

You don't "bring back" really old outdated computer games, you create new versions. And unlike movies and the really crappy remakes that is all the rage nowadays, people prefer the new games over the old ones.
 

Ah, but do you think that the free distribution of the antique 2d version would, in any conceivable fashion, limit sales of the newer 3d version? The only way I can see it influencing sales one way or another is by exposing people to the original, classic games-- possibly making them curious about the new version.

And yet there is the D&D tribute game, Hackmaster, available from Kenzerco, a subsidiary of WOTC. Free distribution of 1Ed or 2Ed product is a threat to that product's viability. The SIZE of the threat is open to debate since Hackmaster isn't merely AD&D renamed, but free TSR product is a close enough substitute that it is an economic competitor.

In fact, its one reason I haven't bought the game. I see no reason to purchase Hackmaster when I have a nearly complete 1Ed/2Ed library (all legally purchased, BTW).

How many of them are released by the company that released the original version, however?

Immaterial. Some are, but others, like Traveller, Space 1889 and Battletech, are released by people who bought the copyright holders rights, have a license, or are working with the original game designer. In any case, they are released by people who legally have the copyrights to the games they are publishing.

You can download Quake 1, Quake 2 and the source code for Quake 3 from Id Softwares own webpage.

That is a perfect example of the original IP holder CHOOSING to release their own old IP free of charge. They have set the price at $0.00. That is far different from OTHERS saying "Aw, they aren't using it anymore...I'll take it."

An electronic game is dead property the second its sequel is released, or with a few limited exceptions, after five or six years of its original release. Even if re-released, it is highly unlikely there are going to be any significant sales for free distribution to damage.

Personally, I don't stop playing a game just because a new version is out. New ≠ Better. I'll be playing Playmaker Football until my machine won't run it. I'm still playing my old Quake and Unreal games. Hell, I have games from the 1980s I still run.

Furthermore, the lower the expected sales of the product, the MORE harm illegal distribution does. See my earlier post about how a Russian pirate site completely devalued the an album by a local Dallas band.

You don't "bring back" really old outdated computer games, you create new versions.

And yet there are people who buy & modify X-Boxes and other machines, take the time to find & download thousands of old console games from Atari 2600's, Nintendos, etc., and play them. This involves an expenditure of time and money that is not large, but also isn't insignificant. In economic terms, these old games are still normal goods, despite their miniscule value.

Those original IP holders (or their rightful subsequent rights-holders) could, if they so chose, sell them online for ¢1 each. That they don't choose to do so does NOT mean that they are giving you permission to download them freely. If they wanted to give you permission for that, they could follow the example of ID or Rockstar.

You could argue that the lack of IP holders trying to sue people for downloading "Yar's Revenge" is evidence that they don't care about it. However, it may just not be good business to enforce that right.

To illustrate: nuisance suits are pretty commonplace in the US, painful though it is for me to say it. In the most common form of nuisance suit, you sue someone for just enough money to be worth YOUR time, but for little enough money to be worth the defendant doing anything else but settling out of court.

Could Atari go after people downloading their old IP? Sure...but it would probably be cost prohibitive to do so. Even so, they (and Nintendo and others) DID go after some of the sites that had been warehousing those games. Successfully, I might add.
 
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IMO a reasonable term of copyright protection for computer software would be 7 years.

Especially if it annoyed Danny. ;)
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Immaterial. ... or are working with the original game designer. ... In any case, they are released by people who legally have the copyrights to the games they are publishing.

It is not immaterial, because the last quoted portion is not correct. If it's a game that plays like (or a lot like) the original but has a different (if similar) name, it is almost guaranteed that it was not released by the original company.

Also, if the original game designer has sold his rights to the game, why should he be allowed to take those rights back or to produce an identical game for another company?

Dannyalcatraz said:
Personally, I don't stop playing a game just because a new version is out. New ≠ Better. I'll be playing Playmaker Football until my machine won't run it. I'm still playing my old Quake and Unreal games. Hell, I have games from the 1980s I still run.

Furthermore, the lower the expected sales of the product, the MORE harm illegal distribution does. See my earlier post about how a Russian pirate site completely devalued the an album by a local Dallas band.

No, but other people do stop buying them; stores even stop selling them. The fact that you continue to play the games makes no difference to the publishers, whose only concern is that people buy their next game.

As for your latter comment, it's more than just lower expected sales-- it's lower expected sales plus a higher percentage of the company's expected profits deriving from the product. There's a difference between "expected total sales" of 100, and "expected future sales" of 100 after having already sold 10,000.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Those original IP holders (or their rightful subsequent rights-holders) could, if they so chose, sell them online for ¢1 each. That they don't choose to do so does NOT mean that they are giving you permission to download them freely. If they wanted to give you permission for that, they could follow the example of ID or Rockstar.

That they don't choose to indicates that they have already made all of the profit off of them that they are going to, and that they're no longer attempting to make more. That means that they have wrung all of the benefit out of copyright protection that they are going to, and that further copyright protection of those properties no longer serves the public good or encourages the production of new IP.

Legally, of course, you're absolutely right-- but I don't think anyone's arguing that abandonware is legal.
 

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