D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[ECMO3]

I said they would be reasonably close and balanced.

No they won't. Not in play they won't. They may be "balanced" on your character sheet when you are not playing the game; but when you start playing you can throw that out the window.

It will be more of a reasonable balance than 4d6dl almost every time

No it won't. Not usually. Generally your abilities have little affect on overall game balance when comparing the performance of one PC versus the performance of another PC.

If two characters are actually "close" and "reasonable" in play it is not because of their array. It is because their choices, the DMs rulings and the dice thrown in play just happened to result in the characters' performance being close and that is a rare thing indeed.

. Your "not very significant" is just funny. Someone with an 18 or two and nothing lower than a 14 vs someone with a high of 14 (if that) and everything lower is going to have a big impact on potential effectiveness

Potential effectiveness is not the same as actual effectiveness and has little to do with balance in play.

. I just rolled up 10 groups of 5 to get 9, 7, 11, 4, 13, 10 and 9, 13, 13, 15, 15, 18. I find it hard to believe that characters generated from both are going to be in the same ballpark.

They won't be in the same ball park in play, but even if the scores were exactly the same they still would not be in the same ballpark in play.

In many games the PC with the lower array (9, 7, 11, 4, 13, 10) will outperform the PC with the higher array (9, 13, 13 15, 15, 18) and belief has nothing to do with it

If you use 4d6dl you will get significant imbalance on a regular basis.

You get significant imbalance regardless of ability scores and it happens in just about every single session.

Two PCs with the exact same ability scores, playing the exact same class and race with the exact same choices for weapons, spells, backgrounds, feats and skills will still typically be imbalanced in play in every single session of a campaign.

 

[ECMO3]

There 54,264 different combinations off ability scores. So I think the probability of two people rolling the same set of scores would be a 1/54264 chance multiplied (?) by another 1/54264. If my math is correct then the chance of two people rolling the same set of scores is 1/2944581696 chance. You would have a much better chance of winning the Powerball jackpot, which is 1/292400000. It's likely you would never roll the same set of scores in your lifetime.

The chance is higher than that because not all of those combinations have an equal chance of occuring.

 

[CleverNickName]

4d6k3 meanwhile, can run the whole gamut of at the absolute lowest stat value 18(3,3,3,3,3,3) to the highest 108(18,18,18,18,18,18), 90 whole points of potential stat variance!

If you use 4d6dl you will get significant imbalance on a regular basis. Personally I don't see the point, but it's not like I'm going to convince anyone.

Do you guys need me to build another histogram? Cuz I'll build another histogram.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

Of course they could roll the same numbers. That's highly unlikely though.

Meanwhile two people in a group that is rolling are also not going to have the same numbers. Odds are one will be significantly higher than someone else at the table.

Point buy is more balanced when compared to rolling for the group. That's the only balance that matters as far as I'm concerned.

That balance comes through sacrificing diversity. With the Standard method we would never roll the same set of scores twice in our lifetimes. I suspect 25% to 50% of the time we build the same set of scores with Point Buy.

 

[TwoSix]

That balance comes through sacrificing diversity. With the Standard method we would never roll the same set of scores twice in our lifetimes. I suspect 25% to 50% of the time we build the same set of scores with Point Buy.

It’s relatively trivial to generate arrays that are both highly diverse and relatively balanced. You generate the initial states with a random method, and then apply a control to put them in line.

Like, roll 4d6k3 6 times. If the total sum of the values is >74, determine one stat randomly (d6 roll) and lower that stat by (sum of 6 stats)-74. If the value is still >74, repeat with a new randomly determined stat.

If the value is <74, do the same process but add to the stat to bring the value up to 74.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

Point-buy virtually guarantees different results as well, unless every player just happens to buy to the same array in the end.

I doubt it. Have you made 66 Point Buy characters? Then you are guaranteed to have made two identical sets of arrays.

But you probably don't have to make that many characters. I think there are fewer than 20 arrays we end up with; particularly if we apply optimization guidelines to our score picking.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

Now some people don't care about that. Nothing suggests to me that's a majority of players.

It would seem that 41% of people on these boards Roll with Dice, 31% Buy with Points, and 25% use the Standard Array.

 

[TwoSix]

Do you guys need me to build another histogram? Cuz I'll build another histogram.

Don't intimidate me with a good time.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That balance comes through sacrificing diversity. With the Standard method we would never roll the same set of scores twice in our lifetimes. I suspect 25% to 50% of the time we build the same set of scores with Point Buy.

I understand that's important to some people. But given they're going to not be arranged identically all the time, I don't find any virtue in diversity of scores for its own sake, and certainly nothing to balance its downsides.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It would seem that 41% of people on these boards Roll with Dice, 31% Buy with Points, and 25% use the Standard Array.

So, as I said, not the majority (arrays are just standardized point buys in the end; they're still not random).