Is Power Attack balanced?

[Nifft]

Even assuming the circumstances where 2H are better are roughly balanced with those where twf is better (they aren't in my expereince, including the STAP, but I'd like to fight more "crowd o mooks" so I can accept the possibilty that other DMs use them more) as was pointed out earlier, twf takes a heavy stat investment and one feat per attack, plus the -2, while 2H takes... buying a two handed weapon. So it's really OK with me if twf is a better fighting style or gets more bang out of pawer attack in some circumstances.

2H is balanced by Power Attack.

TWF is balanced by Sneak Attack.

Sword-n-board is balanced by PHB-II.

I don't see the need to have one feat benefit all fighting styles equally.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Emirikol]

I recently came to the conclusion that Power Attack is a time-saver. They get through monsters' hp faster, so they get to have more encounters in a game session. Yay!

..well, one character will get through all of it faster and do 576 points of damage a round while anyone who's not casting fireballs sits there bored out of their minds.

Rogue player, "I did 6 points"
Fighter playerpushing the rogue character out of the way, "I DID 576 points of damage, how's that for 5th level eh?"
Rogue player, cleric player, ranger player, "Gee, what fun. Maybe Dm you could substantially escalate the entire rest of the game becasue of this one feat so that we can look somewhat like we are contributing to the game."
DM: "Geez! All that coming from the Cleric? I thought you and the Druid with Natural Spell were going to conquer the world???"

jh

 

[Emirikol]

To clarify Hong's point with an example:
If I put in 2d6 + 0 and "Can Power Attack for up to" 6 (implying +6/+1 for full attack), and an Attack Difficulty of 11 (implying a 50% chance to hit) then the "Average without Power Attack" is 3.5.

That would make sense if D&D didn't have a plethora of magic stat and item boosting stuff that makes 8th level games epic

Hongs math probably works well for my games then

jh

 

[SlagMortar]

That would make sense if D&D didn't have a plethora of magic stat and item boosting stuff that makes 8th level games epic

Um... Hong was pointing out why the website for calculating power attack could not be used for a full attack, because it doesn't take a full attack into account. My example was meant to concretely show that the website is not factoring in full attacks. It did not directly pertain to whether power attack is overpowered other than to point out that the website is not a good reflection of how power attack affects average damage in a game with full attacks.

My opinion on power attack is that it is more powerful than most feats at higher levels. To fix that, it should be replaced by a combat option available to anyone with any weapon to take -1 to hit for +1 to damage, including light weapons, with a feat "Improved Power Attack" that gives a +1/+2 for two handed weapons.

 

[Egres]

To clarify Hong's point with an example:
If I put in 2d6 + 0 and "Can Power Attack for up to" 6 (implying +6/+1 for full attack), and an Attack Difficulty of 11 (implying a 50% chance to hit) then the "Average without Power Attack" is 3.5.

3.5 is the average for one attack, and does not count hte second attack at +1. Since you apply the same power attack penalty to all attacks, the "Best Power Attack amount" supplied by the site is only given for a single attack and is higher than would be optimal for a full attack.

This means that PA is even worse, since it greatly penalizes the iterative attacks.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

..well, one character will get through all of it faster and do 576 points of damage a round while anyone who's not casting fireballs sits there bored out of their minds.

Heh.

Not all encounters are going to let everyone do their schtick. The rogue doesn't always get to do his TWF sneak attackapalooza, the ranger doesn't always get to do his machinegunning, and the power attack guy doesn't always get to cut things in half.

Brad

 

[0-hr]

. PA makes the two-handed weapon very favorable when compared to two-weapon builds or sword-and-board builds.

And just toss in Improved Buckler Defense for the best of both worlds! A two handed weapon AND all the AC you can afford to strap onto your arm.

 

[Destil]

One point of note is that power-attack is intentionally unbalanced, as the designers felt it should be 1.5x for the bonus to damage, but it was easier to run at 2x (annoying they left the half bonus on light weapons, though).

I've often though that it should cost a feat to do the extra power attack damage with a 2-handed weapon. Or even the x1.5 str damage with a 2 handed weapon.

Haven't felt strongly enough to houserule it though.

I'm in the exact same boat, Cal. If I ever care enough I'll do it like this:

Power Grip
You gain 1.5 times your Str bonus to damage when wielding a two-handed weapon. You can also power attack, taking up to -5 to your attack roll and adding the same amount to damage.
Normal: You gain your normal Str bonus to damage when using a weapon two-handed.
Special: This feat replaces Power Attack as a prerequisite for other feats.

Power Attack
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Power Grip, BAB 5+
When power attacking with a two handed weapon you add double your attack penalty to damage. You can also subtract up to your base attack bonus from your attack roll.

 

[Emirikol]

This means that PA is even worse, since it greatly penalizes the iterative attacks.

Is it weaker than Combat expertise, weapon finesse, or toughness in the grand scheme of things though?

jh

 

[IanB]

Say what? I can't imagine a shield-oriented fighter or an archer taking it. The fighters in my game apparently didn't get the memo, although the barbarian took it.

Your shield-using fighter can still benefit from cleave and from using power attack to bypass DR, so I'd be very surprised to see any melee fighter skip it, unless they're using weapons you can't power attack with at all.