Is power attack too powerful?

[Kershek]

Potions of True Strike are impossible under 3.5 core rules. Check out the "Brew Potion" feat.

What about the Brew Potion feat in 3.5 are you referring?

BREW POTION [ITEM CREATION]

Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.

Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level x its caster level x 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about the Brew Potion feat in 3.5 are you referring?

He's got the rule right, but the location wrong.

Check in the DMG, under Creating Magic Items: Creating Potions, instead.

-Hyp.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

..

He's got the rule right, but the location wrong.

Check in the DMG, under Creating Magic Items: Creating Potions, instead.

-Hyp.

My bad. The important thing is that I got the rule right.

No somatic...I guess that's a good choice then. Me, I'd rather take 2 full attacks than 1 with a near-guaranteed hit on the first swing.

 

[Kershek]

I didn't even know that was there. I don't remember seeing people talk about it on the forums, either. I see that the two personal range potions from 3.0 (speak with animals and alter self) have been removed in 3.5.

 

[frisbeet]

This thread has been dead a month, I know. But timing is everything, and my timing's off, so here's my rather-more-than-2 cp opinion. First off, here's a tool anyone can use to calculate their optimum PA for full attacks and single attacks, if they don't mind NOT being a PrC or epic character:


http://www.geocities.com/frisbeet/DandDandFightin.html


Now why would you want to do this?

Nail hit it right on:

In play, it's true you have to guess the AC of the opponent.....but frankly, that's pretty straightforward. And then you have (printed out in bright, cheery colors!) a graph that shows your optimal PA for each AC. Quite helpful and speedy.

But even this is probably unnecessary; knowing the range of probable ACs your opponent has gives a corresponding error on the PA guess, so it's usually safe enough to estimate, which can be done in a second or two at most.

Example:

"My barbarian charges at the Dire Tiger, and swings his sword. Mumble: (I guess the Dire Tiger's AC is ~ 18, so I power attack for 5.)"

"Hey, hey! I hit! ....and I did 44 hp of damage! ...Err, it's not dead yet, is it?! Oh."

Guessing AC isn't about meta-gaming. Korak's almost right:

Your interpretation of the feat is as valid as mine. I prefer to think of power attack as an experienced fighter sizing up his opponent and deciding how much power he can add at the expense of accuracy based on his opponent's skill.

Except the "sizing up" doesn't have to be conscious--maybe it's just the fighter's "athletic intelligence" at work--talent, if you will.

Now for jgsugden insightful yet overreaching comments:

1.) ... The truth of the matter is, unless you're hitting very easily with your worst attack (or are having trouble hitting at all with your best attack), you're unlikely to want to power attack for much, even with a 2 handed weapon (if your main goal is to increase your average damage per hit versus a set AC.) This means that the only times power attack really helps you out is in situations where your foe is pathetically easy to hit or is incredible hard to hit - which should be rare circumstances.

This point is somewhat subjective, so it's hard to dispute: who decides what AC is "patherically easy" or "incredibly hard" to hit? But consider this, taken directly from the sheet on my site--do a couple of example calculations yourself if you're untrusting of these #s--

Fighter 12
Str 24
Feats of WF, gWF, WS, gWS, iC for Greatsword
Wields a +3 Greatsword.

Here's his average full attack damage/round, taking into account critical hits, when not power attacking, and then when power attacking with the optimum PA.

FYI, there's nothing tricking about how this spreadsheet got these #s--you can't do calculus with this highly parameterized discrete problem to get a sol'n. My sheet brutally calculates all possible PA results and spits out the best one in the display. That's why it's so $#*&) big (and because of DR), sorry dialups.

opp AC   0 PA   opt PA   w/ PA
10	82.08	12	152.64
11	82.08	12	149.76
12	82.08	12	144.00
13	82.08	12	138.24
14	82.08	11	132.48
15	82.08	11	126.96
16	82.08	10	121.44
17	82.08	10	116.16
18	82.08	9	110.88
19	80.64	9	105.84
20	79.20	8	100.80
21	77.76	7	95.76
22	76.32	6	90.72
23	74.88	5	85.68
24	72.00	4	80.64
25	69.12	3	75.60
26	66.24	2	70.56
27	63.36	1	65.52
28	60.48	1	60.84
29	56.16	1	56.16
30	51.84	0	51.84
31	47.52	0	47.52
32	43.20	0	43.20
33	38.88	0	38.88
34	34.38	0	34.38
35	30.00	0	30.00
36	25.74	0	25.74
37	22.86	0	22.86
38	19.98	0	19.98
39	16.92	0	16.92
40	13.98	0	13.98
41	11.16	0	11.16
42	9.72	0	9.72
43	8.28	0	8.28
44	6.66	12	7.56

Get this far? My point: ACs 22-27 don't seem that uncommon for a level 12 encounter. This takes into account those 2nd & 3rd attacks, too. Power attack is useful.

2.) Power attack requires information to optimize. If you don't know a foe's AC, it is very hard to know how to optimize your PA. As a result, the number of times a PC actually gets the maximum benefit out of power attack is rare.

Guess the AC. It makes combat a lot more interesting--makes it easier to roleplay, ironically.

3.) Power attack is most useful in single attack scenarios (slowed, attacking after moving, when you can't attack except for AoOs, etc ...) instead of full attack scenarios. In those instances, it is fine for a fighter to do an obscene amount of damage with one hit as it will be his only attack for the round (with the exception of AoOs).

Here's how the same fighter does single attacking, again from the sheet on my site:

opp AC   0 PA   opt PA   w/ PA
10	27.36	12	54.72
11	27.36	12	54.72
12	27.36	12	54.72
13	27.36	12	54.72
14	27.36	12	54.72
15	27.36	12	54.72
16	27.36	12	54.72
17	27.36	11	52.44
18	27.36	10	50.16
19	27.36	9	47.88
20	27.36	8	45.60
21	27.36	7	43.32
22	27.36	6	41.04
23	27.36	6	38.88
24	27.36	5	36.72
25	27.36	5	34.68
26	27.36	4	32.64
27	27.36	4	30.72
28	27.36	3	28.80
29	25.92	3	27.00
30	24.48	2	25.20
31	23.04	2	23.52
32	21.60	1	21.84
33	20.16	1	20.28
34	18.72	0	18.72
35	17.28	0	17.28
36	15.84	0	15.84
37	14.40	0	14.40
38	12.96	0	12.96
39	11.52	0	11.52
40	10.08	0	10.08
41	8.64	0	8.64
42	7.20	0	7.20
43	5.76	0	5.76
44	4.14	0	4.14
45	2.64	0	2.64
46	1.26	12	2.52

So whereas with full attack, you are best PA-ing through AC 27, in this case you you're best through AC 31. I'd have thought the difference would be more dramatic, as jgsugden implies.

Jgsugden's last two points are dead on.

All IMO, of course.



Edit: calculations corrected as of 3/22. Had parameterized the GS as doing 3 extra damage points/hit, which is silly. Architecture of spreadsheet unchanged.

 

[kpdezend]

I think it is...

Is power attack too powerful?

Playing a TWF for almost 1/2 a decade now, I looked at power attack for a two handed weapon, and went 'JEBUS! I wish I made him a two handed weapon fighter'.

Of course I then poured and poured over what I could do, and made a spreadsheet that calculates weapon damage for a just created epic level ranger and what weapon would be the most effective. For him, high strength, and the right amount of power attack with a Scythe is many times better than attacking with two weapons, unless the weapons are weapons of hunting and you are fighting a super-hated species!

It is nice to carry multiple weapon choices around and use what is best for the situation.

- Kent -

 

[Will]

I think there are several optimization paths. Two weapon fighting and two handed attack and sword and board... each have some great potential advantages. Which is, IMO, the point.

What I'm curious about is mixed/in between stuff. Can someone do a bastard sword & dagger, and switch between approaches? How about buckler and bastard sword?

Ideally, everyone has a valid direction to go.

 

[Tatsukun]

My (admittedly low level) Barbarian uses Power Attack mostly as a way to shift around rage bonuses. He rages and gets +2 to hit and +3 Damage (all from Str, with 2-handed weapon).

If he wants to do all damage, he pushes the 2 points of attack bonus into 3 more damage.

He also uses combat expertise this way (uses the 2 points of attack bonus to replace the missing 2 points of AC lost to the rage).

I think these two feats work very well with the Barb class for these reasons.

That said, the only times I ever power attack are when I’m smashing a door/wall or when the cleric set me up with a little Bulls Str Loving and I want it all to be damage. Power attack / Combat Expertise make these bonuses much more malleable.

-Tatsu

 

[Hypersmurf]

If he wants to do all damage, he pushes the 2 points of attack bonus into 3 more damage.

4 more damage, using PA as written.

-Hyp.

 

[Tatsukun]

Right, 4.
Typo

-T