Is Rope Trick broken!?

[The Sigil]

Muddying the water...

With all that's going on in this thread here is my simple, easy-to-follow (I hope) mathematical solution (don't worry, this kind of math is "counting" and "adding," not "calculus" or "set theory").

Characters normally exist in three spatial dimensions. For ease of use, call these dimensions 1, 2, and 3. Physical objects, like the outside of a bag of holding, also are in dimensions 1, 2, and 3.

Moving into an extra-dimensional space "shifts" a physical object by adding one to the number of his dimensions. IOW, moving into a Mord's Mansion means the character (and his bag of holding) are now in dimensions 2, 3, and 4. Why not shift more? Because the "portal" itself is a flat plane (2-dimensional) and must share two dimensions with "normal" space (in this case, 2 and 3).

Moving into a non-dimensional space shifts you "down" by one dimension. IOW, under normal circumstances, the inside of a bag of holding exists in dimensions 0, 1, 2. Again, it shares 2 dimensions with "normal space" because there is a 2-dimensional plane in which you can reach into it (the mouth of the bag).

Non-dimensional space cannot "shift" extra-dimensional space and vice-versa.

Now, what happens when you move into an extra-dimensional space and try to open a bag of holding? The bag itself is in dimensions 2, 3, and 4 thanks to the shift when you went into extra-dimensional space. However, the non-dimensional space did NOT shift with you. This means that while the outside of the bag is in dimensions 2, 3, and 4, the inside of the bag is in dimensions 0, 1, and 2.

They are still connected, but only at a single point - too small to get anything out of. Therefore, you have not "lost contact" with the non-dimensional space entirely, but you have no way to access the interior.

Now, we get to the question of "what happens when we start double-shifting?"

Suppose we have an extradimensional space in an extradimensional space. Okay, fine, just shift again... we now move to dimensions 3, 4, and 5. However, the inside of the bag of holding you brought with you remains in dimensions 0, 1, and 2. There are now no common dimensions... you have "severed" the inside of the bag of holding from the outside... you may handle this in one of several ways...

1.) BOOM! The energy released as the bond is broken "blows up the universe."

2.) NONMAGICAL! The bag of holding loses its connection to the non-dimensional interior and is rendered forever non-magical. All of its contents are forever lost, forever "out of phase" with everything else.

3.) SINGULARITY! Similar to Boom, but instead you get a black hole... consider this the creation of a Sphere of Annihilation.

4.) OTHER... Rip in dimensional fabric sends you to the astral plane, outer plane, whatever.

A similar situation occurs if you try to carry an extradimensional space into a double-shifted non-dimensional space.

Now, the final question arises, "what about extradimensional space in extradimensional space?" I suppose if you like, you can put a "limit" on things...

A.) If you ever shift so much that you no longer have 1, 2, or 3 as a dimension, you immediately die.

-OR-

B.) Dimension -2,-3,-4 is the astral plane; dimension 6,7,8 is the ethereal (or vice versa). As soon as you hit one of these dimensions (i.e., -2 or 6) you are immediately sucked into the appropriate plane.

Don't know if this helps or muddies the water... I'm just going off the cuff here, but it seems like a really nifty start to something... and very reminiscent of the old D&D Immortals rules...

--The Sigil

 

[Gromm]

Is it bad that all this discussion made me think of was a nasty trap? A pit with a portable hole at the bottom. Place, in plain view, earlier in the same dungeon a bag of holding.

 

[hong]

I think some people are reading FAR too much into the distinction between "extradimensional" and "nondimensional" spaces. As noted, the portable hole description uses both terms to describe the one object. To me, this says that they're interchangeable. They're not words of art, or technical jargon, the way "full round action" or "standard action" are. They're just plain English words that refer to some place out in the never-never, where you can store stuff.

The corollary is that there aren't any rules for the interaction between extradimensional and nondimensional spaces, because ultimately they're the same thing. Any interaction between portable holes and bags of holding is something specific to those two items, and not a property of places out in the never-never in general.

 

[Caliban]

Like I said, it all depends on how the DM want's to define the cosmology. (Basically, no matter how you rule on this, it's probably a house rule.)

I checked the FAQ, and here is the full text of the Sages response on this subject:

Can I open my bag of holding on the Ethereal Plane? Can I open it on the Astral Plane? If the answer is yes to both, why does page 33 of Manual of the Planes even have a list of extradimensional spells?

The answer is yes to both, at least within the context of the Great Wheel. The Manual of the Planes lists extradimensional spells because it's possible to create a cosmology that has a single dimension. In such a cosmology, spells that use extradimensional space will not function.

Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding? The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide says that a bag of holding placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane. Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide also says that when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. However, the description for Heward's handy haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding could be placed inside another bag of holding with no
unusual effects.

It's a general rule that you can't mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward's handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled.

Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.

After reading the full text of the Sages response, I believe that kreynolds was right about one thing: the Sage believes you can use a bag of holding or portable whole within a rope trick spell.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Is it bad that all this discussion made me think of was a nasty trap? A pit with a portable hole at the bottom. Place, in plain view, earlier in the same dungeon a bag of holding.

There was a very similar trap in one of the old dungeon magazines. IIRC it was called Deadly Treasures.

Geoff.

 

[Kilroy]

Re: For a really nasty example of Evil DM tricks....

Originally posted by Zog


How much do you memorize, versus running like heck before the entire complex is waiting to ambush you?



Its questions like these that really make 'em squirm.

Yeah, I love doing that to players in games I run every time they get mauled and try to hide. I just don't understand why I can't keep a game going more than a couple weeks though. </SARCASM>

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: For a really nasty example of Evil DM tricks....

Yeah, I love doing that to players in games I run every time they get mauled and try to hide. I just don't understand why I can't keep a game going more than a couple weeks though. </SARCASM>

LOL