Is Speed Useful?

[Ridley's Cohort]

two's analysis is very good.

Further note that Cleave and Great Cleave tends to favor the bonus damage over the extra attack.

As for the Boots, while it is true that in a grinding dungeon crawl you are likely to see more than 10 rounds of combat per day, it is nonetheless highly unlikely that you will seen more than 10 rounds in a single day where your melee specialist gets the opportunity to take a full attack. If you conserve your Boots for full attacks and do not burn up lots of duration on a little extra movement, you will have plenty to go around.

The calculus is a bit different for archers, but they tend to get excellent mileage out of bonus damage dice.

 

[Shadeus]

Let's say both fighter hit 90%, 90%, 60%, 40% for the 4 attacks. (the additional haste attack is at the same bonus as the highest attack).

Let's also figure out how often the high level fighters are fighting things that are evil. I'd say 90% minimum.

So the Holy, Sonic longsword is doing 7 (holy) + 2 (sonic) additional per attack 90% of the time.

Additional damage is:


Attack1: 7 * .9 (evil foe) * .9 (strike hits) = 5.5 roughly.
Attack2: same 5.5 roughly.
Attack3: roughly 3.5
Attack4: roughly 2.5

TOTAL: 17 points of damage (additional).

Notice that this is essentially the same as the Speed weapon.

Your math is off here. You forgot to include the sonic damage. You also didn't take into account the 50% chance you would get a full round of attacks. Doing that math it's:

attack 1: ((7 * .9 [evil foe]) + 2) * .9 [strike hits]) * .5 = 3.73
attack 2: same 3.73
attack 3: roughly 2.5
attack 4: roughly 1.5 (1.66)

Total: 11.5 points of damage

Is there a reason the 50% chance of a full round attack shouldn't apply to the holy screaming weapon too?

 

[Nail]

Alternately, you can stack magical abilites on slotted items for +50% cost (so a pair of boots that lasted 20 rnds total would be 12k gp + 18k gp).

No need -- just increase the CL for increased rounds per day.

Currently, the Boots of Speed (12,000gp) are priced this way:

3 (Spl Lvl) * 10 (CL) * 2000gp (use activated) * 1/5 (effectively 1 haste spell per day) = 12,000gp

.........so if you wanted 14 rounds of "speed", you could raise the CL to 14, meaning the cost would be:

3 (Spl Lvl) * 14 (CL) * 2000gp (use activated) * 1/5 (effectively 1 haste spell per day) = 16,800gp

.........Or, if you really need 20 rounds of Haste per day, keep the CL at 10, but increase the "effective uses per day"=

3 (Spl Lvl) * 10 (CL) * 2000gp (use activated) * 2/5 (effectively 1 haste spell per day) = 24,000gp.


...........Etc.

 

[two]

Duh! YES you are right!

Your math is off here. You forgot to include the sonic damage. You also didn't take into account the 50% chance you would get a full round of attacks. Doing that math it's:

attack 1: ((7 * .9 [evil foe]) + 2) * .9 [strike hits]) * .5 = 3.73
attack 2: same 3.73
attack 3: roughly 2.5
attack 4: roughly 1.5 (1.66)

Total: 11.5 points of damage

Is there a reason the 50% chance of a full round attack shouldn't apply to the holy screaming weapon too?

Yes you are right. DUH!

Holy weapon damage is reduced to 11.5 because we only get full attacks 50% of the time.

But -- guess what? Holy weapon damage is also applied during charges/standard attacks.

So the other 50% you get to add 7 (holy) + 2 (sonic) = 3.75.

So the per round average is about 15.

To recap: speed does 18 under optimal and illegal circumstances. Holy does 15.

The real question is: how much average damage do you have to do per hit to make speed worth it?

Average damage = 40 gives 18 av/damage per round.

Now a rogue20 with 10 dice of sneak attack might be doing:

35 (sneak attack) + 3 (strength) + 1 (weapon) + some other damage bonuses = 45 or so, maybe.

This isn't enough to catch up with Holy given the prevalance of Holy/good DR.

Honestly, from my gut...unless you are doing really HIDEOUS damage, like averaging 60 per hit, at that point speed might be worth it. maybe.

If it stacked with haste, which it does not.

Can you really imagine anyone at 20th level having trouble being hasted as much as they want?

 

[Plane Sailing]

From the 3.5 FAQ (pg. 33):

"There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock
weapon

This made me laugh, until I realised that the FAQ writer was probably being serious. Certainly in the same vein as the guy who maintained that the Halfling Outrider wasn't supposed to have a BAB (i.e. that's the way its written, so it makes perfect sense).

Flaming frost indeed.

 

[Presto2112]

I'd rather have an Acidic, Flaming, Frost weapon than a weapon of Speed.

Or a Ghost Touch, Throwing, Returning Greataxe.

Or a Holy, Evil-Outsider Bane Bastardsword.

There's a whole lot you can do with +3 equivalent that Speed just can't match.

Agreed. It's most often more efficient to improve the damage you cause on the attacks you get, rather than get another attack.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think the 3.5 text is actually quite clear.

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it.

So why wouldn't you get extra attacks from multiple weapons? If I had a flaming sword in each hand, would I not do the extra 1d6 on each sword? The benefit of speed is an extra attack. The only limiting factor is that you must make a full attack action. Since you can use multiple weapons (usually two) with a full attack action, I see no reason why you wouldn't gain extra attacks with each weapon.

Yes, the 3.0 FAQ is a problem (it would be interesting to get a 3.5 response to see if the 3.0 FAQ still stands). It doesn't seem to gel with the speed description. But for a +3 modifier, I'd let it go.

 

[two]

I think the 3.5 text is actually quite clear.

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it.

So why wouldn't you get extra attacks from multiple weapons? If I had a flaming sword in each hand, would I not do the extra 1d6 on each sword? The benefit of speed is an extra attack. The only limiting factor is that you must make a full attack action. Since you can use multiple weapons (usually two) with a full attack action, I see no reason why you wouldn't gain extra attacks with each weapon.

Yes, the 3.0 FAQ is a problem (it would be interesting to get a 3.5 response to see if the 3.0 FAQ still stands). It doesn't seem to gel with the speed description. But for a +3 modifier, I'd let it go.

I would let the PC do it as well.

Good god.

Wasting that much money on a +3 enchantment for TWO weapons?

It's so ridiculously over-the-top not an optimal build...yeah... go for it!

 

[mvincent]

That's 3.0 rules you are quoting. Haste and speed have changed.

Haste changed, but not Speed (which is what we are talking about). As shown earlier, the minor text changes in the Speed description actually made it more clear that Speed does not stack with itself.

 

[mvincent]

Yes, the 3.0 FAQ is a problem (it would be interesting to get a 3.5 response to see if the 3.0 FAQ still stands).

Again, here is the 3.0 text for Speed:
"Speed
A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at the wielder’s highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Market Price: +4 bonus."

Here is the 3.5 text:
"Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus."

I'm ok with leaving it up to each individual DM to interpret.