Is Speed Useful?

[Shadeus]

Again, here is the 3.0 text for Speed:
"Speed
A weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at the wielder’s highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Market Price: +4 bonus."

Here is the 3.5 text:
"Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus."

I'm ok with leaving it up to each individual DM to interpret.

Wait, the speed enhancement did change. In 3.0, you could make two attacks after a move. You cannot do that in 3.5. In 3.5, you only get the extra attack if you take a full round of attacks. That's a huge difference. Imagine the leap attacking greataxe barbarian getting two attacks at the end of his charge with triple power attack damage!

 

[Stormrunner]

As usual, the problem is munchkinism.

One sword of Speed is not game-breaking. Even two stacking swords probably would be OK.
It's when you start getting the "I polymorph into a marilith, cast Girallon's Blessing, activate Raging Mongoose, and attack 32 times with my eight swords of speed" that we start getting problematic. (And silly.)

It seems quite clear to me that WotC's intent was to not allow more than one extra "speed" attack per round, no matter how many weapons of speed, haste spells, etc. you might be stacking. Anything else is too abusable.

OTOH, I houserule the Speed weapon enhancement to be +2 rather than +3. I agree it's underpowered for +3, but +2 seems to work about right. (I haven't done the math.)

 

[Dracorat]

It seems quite clear to me that WotC's intent was to not allow more than one extra "speed" attack per round, no matter how many weapons of speed, haste spells, etc. you might be stacking. Anything else is too abusable.

That doesn't seem so clear to me. In fact, the opposite seems clearer (one with each weapon).

 

[KarinsDad]

So it's a slippery slope. If you are going to hit it a lot, then the energy sword is your best bet because it does the most damage. If it's got a better AC, then that extra attack at your best attack bonus really comes in handy. That's not to say that boots of speed can't do the exact same thing and more (speed weapon doesn't give you a boost to your movement, AC, attacks, or Ref saves).

Good analysis.

However, the Speed Weapon often wins out in damage at the levels where +5 weapons are available because the Energy Weapon often does nothing with regard to one or more energy types. Sure, not all opponents have Energy Resistance, but many do. Ditto for other weapons like Holy and Bane where they do not always do the extra damage against all opponents.


As for Boots of Speed, 10 rounds in a day is often plenty at low to mid levels. Just not always, especially at high level where PCs can often fight in 8+ combats in a single day. Mass Heal alone tends to add an additional combat per day per casting.

Add to this the fact that the +2 Weapon of Speed can have Greater Magic Weapon cast on it once per day (out of combat) as opposed to a Haste spell of once per combat (in combat) and the boosted Speed Weapon can do considerably better than the +5 Weapon as well.

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Using Two Weapons of Speed is debatable. The benefit is per weapon, so it could be argued that this is not a cumulative effect per weapon. On the other hand, it could be argued that this is a cumulative effect per wielder. So, RAW here is a bit unclear.

 

[Dracorat]

Unless the rules are spot on, in which case it is completely clear. You get one extra attack when you make an attack with a speed weapon.

 

[Stormrunner]

Then why, over and over, do they say "does not stack with haste", "does not stack with speed", etc.? If stacking multiple Speed weapons is A-OK, then why try so hard to avoid stacking Speed weapons with Haste? Or Haste with Haste? It's the exact same effect, after all...

"They banned all the other similar combos, but they didn't explicitly mention this particular one, therefore I'm certain they really meant to allow it."

DMG pg 225:
"This ability does not stack with similar effects, such as a haste spell."

You interpret this as "Haste is the only thing this doesn't stack with." Or perhaps "It says 'other similar effects' but it doesn't say it can't stack with the same effect".

I guess they should have written "This doesn't stack with anything that grants any extra attacks, at all, ever. Period." Then people would complain that, by a strictly narrow reading of the text, that you couldn't use such a weapon with Two-Weapon fighting...

Whatever. Your Milage obviously Varies, considerably....

 

[Artoomis]

Unless the rules are spot on, in which case it is completely clear. You get one extra attack when you make an attack with a speed weapon.

Well, when you make a full attack only, of course.

Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

 

[Dracorat]

Well, when you make a full attack only, of course.

Of course.

 

[Artoomis]

And, of course, you get only one Speed/Haste effect per round that gives you an extra attack.

Even if you have two Speed weapons.

I can see how folks would think otherwise, but it screams "rules abuse" to me to allow someone with two speed weapons to get two extra attacks.

 

[Dracorat]

Your position is clear, but not universally accepted. And it screams nothing about abuse.