Is Speed Useful?

[Artoomis]

Your position is clear, but not universally accepted. And it screams nothing about abuse.

Well, it seems clear that a "speed"' effect is "similar" to another "speed" effect. The intent seems clear that since no two "speed-like" effects stack together to get more than one extra attack per round, than that's all you get.

Simple enough, eh?

You could allow two speed weapons to EACH give you one extra attack becasue the effect is applied to DIFFERENT WEAPONS, but that sure seems like that's against both the intent and language of the rules.

I could see interpreting the rule that way, though, but it does seems like stretching the rule - more than just a litlle, too..

 

[Dracorat]

Actually, its within the language of the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, its within the language of the rules.

If you interpret it that way, yes, I suppose.

So, once again, you could justify a two opposed choicec based upon RAW which, once again, makes it a bit silly to worry overmuch about picky RAW interpretations but instead focus on how you think it really should work - what was the intent of the rule?

 

[Dracorat]

The intent was to give a weapon with the speed enhancement an extra attack when taking a full attack action.

 

[Artoomis]

The intent was to give a weapon with the speed enhancement an extra attack when taking a full attack action.

Okay - that's simple enough. What about the line about not stacking with similar effects? How does that play into it?

 

[Dracorat]

If you haste someone weilding a speed weapon on-hand they don't get an additional attack. If they were to swap in a duel weild setup and be hasted plus using a speed weapon offhand they would. The effect is not similar because they are attacking with an additional attack off hand and haste gives you one on-hand.

 

[Artoomis]

If you haste someone weilding a speed weapon on-hand they don't get an additional attack. If they were to swap in a duel weild setup and be hasted plus using a speed weapon offhand they would. The effect is not similar because they are attacking with an additional attack off hand and haste gives you one on-hand.

Okay, that was a little hard to follow.

So, please dive in here, how many extra attacks (where"extra" means only the one's that Speed an/or Hsate grant)? Assuming a full attack action:

One Speed weapon plus Haste = one extra attack. Easy one, right?

Two speed weapons plus haste = how many extra attacks, one or two? (Surely not more than two because Haste will not stack, right?)

One because the "similar effects" give no more extra attacks?

Or two because EACH Speed weapon gives one extra attack for that weapon and the "similar effects" line applies only to stacking with THAT weapon?

Or something else?

 

[Artoomis]

If you haste someone weilding a speed weapon on-hand they don't get an additional attack. If they were to swap in a duel weild setup and be hasted plus using a speed weapon offhand they would. The effect is not similar because they are attacking with an additional attack off hand and haste gives you one on-hand.

Reading this again - surely you are not saying a Speed effect with the on-hand is not similar than a Speed effect with the off-hand?

 

[Dracorat]

No I am not, but I AM saying that having an extra attack in the offhand is not the same as having an extra attack in the on hand.

As for your examples:

One Speed weapon plus Haste = one extra attack. Easy one, right?
Correct and Yep.

Two speed weapons plus haste =
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

One speed weapon, offhand, regular weapon onhand, plus Haste
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

 

[Artoomis]

No I am not, but I AM saying that having an extra attack in the offhand is not the same as having an extra attack in the on hand.

As for your examples:

One Speed weapon plus Haste = one extra attack. Easy one, right?
Correct and Yep.

Two speed weapons plus haste =
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

One speed weapon, offhand, regular weapon onhand, plus Haste
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

Two speed weapons plus haste =
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

I can see a RAW-based argument that can support this. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. The argument's legitimacy has nothing to do with stacking or similarity, it has to do with it being a different weapon that also has the Speed property.

One speed weapon, offhand, regular weapon onhand, plus Haste
Two extra attacks. (One with each weapon)

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding...This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed

Pretty weak, but possible if you buy that the the weapon WITHOUT Speed (on or off-hand does not matter) is Hasted but the weapon with Speed is unaffected.

I don't buy it. I think the intent was you get ONE extra attack from Speed or Haste. Period. End of story.

Mind you, I see how you can use RAW to arrive at your conclusions. I think it's an incorrect interpretation, but that's all. Not really faulty logic, just ducking around what seems to be the intention.

Once again, the RAW can lead to two opposing conclusions. Surprise, surprise!