Is Star Wars RPG the perfect d20 system?

[greywulf]

I've been reading it through it preparation for one of my group running a game in the near future, and I'm liking what I see - a lot. Almost of the the niggles and stuff that jars about D&D has been ironed out beautifully to produce a neat, well constructed and streamlined game system.

Here's a summary of the bits that are different and (IMHO) better:

* Lots and lots of races, all of which are LA +0. Add in the Ultimate Alien Anthology and you've almost 200 playable races, many of which would fit equally well into the fantasy milieu (if you play a Jorune or Talislanta style game, anyhow). I want me some Wookiee Duskblade!!
* Free-for-all Multi-classing and class selection. Class availability is left in the hands of the DM, just where it should be.
* All classes are packed with goodness; there are very few dead levels where the class gains nothing. This means there's incentive to stick with a single class all the way to 20th, if you wanna.
* Armour gives damage reduction not Defense (AC).
* Defense increases as level improves. Yep. 20th level characters can wear no armour, cast no Mage Armour and still be harder to hit thanks to their training and experience. Just as it should be.
* Reputation bonus and the ability to gain followers after 10th level. This is a return to OD&D Name Level benefits! I love it!
* HP replaced with Wounds and Vitality; Wounds = CON, Vitality improves with level and represents the ability to turn a blow and ignore trivial blows. Cannon fodder critters don't have Vitality.
* Critical hits directly damage Wounds. Cannon fodder critters are reduced to -1 Wounds with single a critical blow.
* Miniatures use is de-emphasized, but still there if you want/need them.
* Force (Magic) use is Vitality-based. It's very easy to drop Vancian magic, Psionics or anything else in too though; just stick those classes in, give them Defense and Reputation mods and you're done.
* Goal-based XP awards. Simple, not primarily combat based and none of that CR/ECL silliness. Just "Simple" (lvlx100), "Challenging" (lvlx300) or "Extreme" (lvlx400). Perfect.

I could go on.............

The main changes (Defense and Wounds/Vitality) make for a more cinematic game where a band of heroes can plough through a load of Droids/Stormtroopers/Goblins before facing off against the main threats. Drop Action Points from d20 Modern into the mix for an optional high-octane flavour and you've something really special.

The kicker for me is this: it's a one book system where just a single volume contains character generation, combat, monsters, setting info and the gamesmaster guide. If this was a model for (dare I say it?) 4e D&D, I'd buy it in an instant.

What do you think of the Star Wars system? Good? Bad? Better?

 

[thedungeondelver]

I don't know if STAR WARS is the perfect d20 system, but I do feel that d20 is the perfect system for STAR WARS. I never cared for WeG's d6 based system really at all.

Now if only WotC had seen fit to have brought over/converted the tons of great source material before slamming the door on the STAR WARS RPG

 

[Corsair]

You know that a new re-revised SWd20 edition is coming out, right?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I don't know if STAR WARS is the perfect d20 system, but I do feel that d20 is the perfect system for STAR WARS. I never cared for WeG's d6 based system really at all.

Now if only WotC had seen fit to have brought over/converted the tons of great source material before slamming the door on the STAR WARS RPG

Ahem...

 

[greywulf]

I don't know if STAR WARS is the perfect d20 system, but I do feel that d20 is the perfect system for STAR WARS. I never cared for WeG's d6 based system really at all.

Now if only WotC had seen fit to have brought over/converted the tons of great source material before slamming the door on the STAR WARS RPG
[/font]

I agree, on both counts. d6 was fun for over the top cinematics, but it became too easy to turn Star Wars into a Paranioa session instead - huge blaster wielding maniacs cheerfully wading into and out of situations. For our group, at least

 

[Psion]

I think RCR is pretty good iteration of d20 -- enough so, I'm skeptical of Saga edition. I don't think it's as good as D&D 3.5, and think that many of the contrasts between the system are not things that I'd want to pull back into D&D.

VP/WP would be the most tempting, because it solves my 4 main hangups with HP... but then, I feel that it is sort of going for a different feel.

I don't think they have the class and role balance down as well in D20 SW.

I don't at all feel that favored classes should be done away with in D&D. They are purposeful in defining the feel of races in D&D.


I do agree D&D could use goal-based XP awards and there's one thing you missed I think D&D could use... NPC classes that don't progress in HP/Vitality

 

[Psion]

I don't know if STAR WARS is the perfect d20 system, but I do feel that d20 is the perfect system for STAR WARS. I never cared for WeG's d6 based system really at all.

Likewise. I was part of groups that played other SF systems before WEG SW came out, and the game didn't last long in our groups, as it didn't really measure up to other systems of the day.

 

[delericho]

I strongly disagree. While d20 could have made for a wonderful Star Wars game, the actual implementation leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

Here's a summary of the bits that are different and (IMHO) better:

* Lots and lots of races, all of which are LA +0. Add in the Ultimate Alien Anthology and you've almost 200 playable races, many of which would fit equally well into the fantasy milieu (if you play a Jorune or Talislanta style game, anyhow). I want me some Wookiee Duskblade!!
* Free-for-all Multi-classing and class selection. Class availability is left in the hands of the DM, just where it should be.
* All classes are packed with goodness; there are very few dead levels where the class gains nothing. This means there's incentive to stick with a single class all the way to 20th, if you wanna.
* Defense increases as level improves. Yep. 20th level characters can wear no armour, cast no Mage Armour and still be harder to hit thanks to their training and experience. Just as it should be.
* Reputation bonus and the ability to gain followers after 10th level. This is a return to OD&D Name Level benefits! I love it!
* Miniatures use is de-emphasized, but still there if you want/need them.

Okay, all of these I agree with.

* Force (Magic) use is Vitality-based. It's very easy to drop Vancian magic, Psionics or anything else in too though; just stick those classes in, give them Defense and Reputation mods and you're done.
* Goal-based XP awards. Simple, not primarily combat based and none of that CR/ECL silliness. Just "Simple" (lvlx100), "Challenging" (lvlx300) or "Extreme" (lvlx400). Perfect.

And these I don't disagree with. Although, in both cases they're just alternative systems that do their jobs well, but not necessarily better than the D&D mechanisms.

* Armour gives damage reduction not Defense (AC).
* HP replaced with Wounds and Vitality; Wounds = CON, Vitality improves with level and represents the ability to turn a blow and ignore trivial blows. Cannon fodder critters don't have Vitality.
* Critical hits directly damage Wounds. Cannon fodder critters are reduced to -1 Wounds with single a critical blow.

The main changes (Defense and Wounds/Vitality) make for a more cinematic game where a band of heroes can plough through a load of Droids/Stormtroopers/Goblins before facing off against the main threats. Drop Action Points from d20 Modern into the mix for an optional high-octane flavour and you've something really special.

In theory, this is correct. In practice, it really doesn't work like that.

Armour as DR has the effect of making anything that adds to damage (most notably Power Attack) far more powerful. Additionally, since the DR only applies on a critical hit, this change has the effect of making armour almost worthless. Making that change is fine, in principle, but in practice it necessitates a lot more rebalancing of the combat rules than is done here (or Unearthed Arcana).

The VP/WP system has the odd effect of actually making PCs extremely combat-phobic, which works against the cinematic feel that seems to be the goal. A high level PC won't simply wade through dozens of mooks (as they would in D&D), because there's always a 1 in 400 chance that any attack will be a critical hit, and you can only take two or three of those. And, in fact, where Jedi with lightsabers are involved (or any character with Sneak Attack) that number drops to 1.

Arguably, the VP/WP system is more 'realistic'. Ironically, the hit point system would have fit the source material a lot better, IMO.

The kicker for me is this: it's a one book system where just a single volume contains character generation, combat, monsters, setting info and the gamesmaster guide. If this was a model for (dare I say it?) 4e D&D, I'd buy it in an instant.

While a one-book system has its charms, one of the great strengths of D&D IMO is the range covered by the core. Given that very little outside the core is well-supported (especially in Dungeon magazine), the last thing I want to see is a reduction in the scope of the core rules. YMMV, of course.

What do you think of the Star Wars system? Good? Bad? Better?

The other thing I didn't like about Star Wars is the starship combat system. In the first version of the game, it was really clunky and awkward. In the revised edition, the system was improved a lot, but it still didn't take enough account of the differences between an X-Wing flown by Luke and an X-Wing flown by "Red 6". The system should have been much closer to the regular combat system, IMO, with the snubfighter somehow 'inheriting' its hit points from the pilot.

Unfortunately, there are two things I really wanted from a Star Wars game: lightsaber duels and starship combat. The Star Wars d20 game failed me on both counts.

 

[greywulf]

Good points, all, thanks. I didn't know there's a new version coming out. Boy will Mark (my player) ever be hacked off!

Balance is less of an issue for our group, whatever the game. Good game balance comes from good games mastering, not bad rules. That's something D&D doesn't seem to understand.

When it comes to sci-fi systems we're used to playing Traveller, so gaming in a universe where the rules aren't geared toward making combat almost certainly fatal is going to make a welcome change - I'm looking forward to my first firefight where I'm not scared for my character's life!

We've run d20 Modern, Mutants & Masterminds and D&D games (among others) for the past year or so, and thaey're all good in their own way, allbeit with a slighty different feel to each one. M&M is superb, but wouldn't work for Fantasy. Not the way we play it, at least. d20 Modern is too....um..... clean cut (though I love the concept of the classes). Star Wars is the first time I've read a set of d20 rules and thought that they would handle d20 Fantasy better than D&D itself. I'm impressed.

delericho, considering you "strongly disagree" you seem to agree with a lot of my points I'm interesting in your thoughts about the effect that Wounds/Vitality and Defense has on combat, and now I'm looking forward to it even more - I want to test it out for myself. What you say about caution makes sense; I agree, that does indeed go against the intention of the rules and how it /sounds/ like it should be played. I want to see that for myself. My group isn't afraid of pulling back in combat and using tactics and cover where it's possible rather than charging gung-ho, so it might not be a problem for us. I agree with you about light saber battles not being as well covered as they could be.

Hmmmmmmm..............

 

[HellHound]

Not a fan of WP/VP, I think the MDT system in CoCd20 was better. The armor as DR seems to do next to nothing in this system - might as well get rid of armor completely.

I also prefer classless play, and my d20 modern game got rid of all the classes, for instance.

As for the miniatures thing, I don't see any real difference between D&D and SWd20 when it comes to the emphasis on minis. In fact, we use minis a lot more in my SWd20 games than in my D&D games.

I do like the number of LA+0 races