D&D 5E Is Storm King's Thunder a flop . . ? Still early yet but doesn't look that good.

Your frustrations make sense; bit, not hanong read the book, many of those vague aspects seem to me to be design features, not failures (as in, more that Perkins succeed at something you didn't want, rather than failed at something he did not try?)
The loose narrative in the side giant lairs is a strength, making those dungeons modular allows the, to be used by people without running through the entire campaign.

Not making the Storm King relevant until the adventure is almost over and springing it on the players makes that feel tacked on. Like the DM is stringing together two unrelated modules. Or like the adventure was written by two different people who weren't coordinating or communicating. If you told me that at the last minute Perkins had to completely change and rewrite the conclusion, I'd believe it.
 

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BigBadDM

Explorer
Jester David, sometimes people can just agree to the differences that makes something worthwhile. I am currently running as player through CoS, but it isn't the end-all-be-all that some make it out to be. If someone told me that Curse of Strahd is just a rehash of an old AD&D adventure with fluff bits added in, I would believe them <insert sarcasm>. While I am still playing CoS, I have DMed the original and really it was just eh. If you like a giant dungeon crawl with undead everywhere, then okay. But even in the acclaimed CoS, it has problems; a villain that dies much too easily in the climax and very little replayablility. Sure you can fix the encounters in CoS, but isn't that a lot of 'DM work'? The best part of SKT though is the replayability and its openendedness; I can play through several campaigns of SKT simultaneously and they all could be vastly different; from plot hooks, to motivation of giants, to the dungeons they see, to the conclusion. I am not forced to DM it a certain way. To have an adventure that you can come back to in various different scenarios says a lot to the quality.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I haven't read it because I'm playing in it. Several good GMs at my FLGS like it and are running it. One started us at 5th because he wanted to jump right into *Fighting Giants*, but he always customizes adventures.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
The best part of SKT though is the replayability and its openendedness; I can play through several campaigns of SKT simultaneously and they all could be vastly different; from plot hooks, to motivation of giants, to the dungeons they see, to the conclusion. I am not forced to DM it a certain way. To have an adventure that you can come back to in various different scenarios says a lot to the quality.
A large part of SKT's "replayability" comes from the fact that it is broken, and different DMs will fix it in different ways. That's a bug, not a feature.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Symbolism is tricky in D&D at the best of times. It's not a traditional literary form and doesn't confirm or follow conventional storytelling techniques. Even when done well, that type of ending can be particularly weak, feeling like deus ex machina and having no apparent cause-and-effect. (Very literally, since it involves Annam and the Dungeon Master hand waving a solution.)
And any action the PCs could take at the end could arguably do the same; stopping any of the giant schemes has a similar symbolic resonance.


In this case it's particularly weak since the restoration of the king isn't the end of the adventure and there's no advice given to restore the ordning then. The restoring of the ordning is just kinda tacked on at the very end.
"So the children learned how to function as a society, and eventually they were rescued by, oh, let's say...Moe."
In this case the symbolism is straight-forward and traditional. The feudal King rules by Divine Right. Due to the terms of the Ornding that is made literally true for giant society. If the King displeases his gods, as Heketon does by failing to rise to face the dragons, his Divine Right weakens. Again that is made literally true in SKT via the breaking of the Ordning. The King's Divine Right is withdrawn. A traditional world-upside-down (charivari) event then takes place, in which the daughters murder the mother and shackle the father. Further symbolically apt situations arise throughout giant-dom, such as Guh's obsession (making her a parody of appropriate chiefdom) and Kayalithica's false oracle. The giants act out an appropriate turmoil in response to their King's failings. Iymrith's literal duplicity is another perfect piece of symbolism.

When the players restore Hekaton to the throne this marks forgiveness or opportunity to repent. In terms of the traditional structure, the *only* situation in which he could be returned to the throne is one in which the Ordning is restored (or restoring). We mustn't overlook too that there has been an appropriate spiritual progress: at the end the King admits that he has misjudged the small folk. He accepts a duty to make amends (by opposing dragons as his gods intend).

I think it is wrong to ignore the resolution Iymrith's death must bring, and naturally the designers - having left the PCs at level 10 - want to offer paths along which the story can continue to play out. There is nothing symbolically inappropriate in that it must take time for the restoration of the Ordning to make good. Some of the gamboling giants may take great exertions to bring back in line. Further tests may lie in wait. That is where the roleplay diverges from the Shakespearean: the play concludes, the roleplay carries on.

For me, feeling that the end is weak principally comes about from ignoring the symbolism. I find it strong.

Hekaton isn't foreshadowed. The absence of the Storm King isn't teased for the first chunk of the adventure. It has no relation to any of the problems the players are dealing with, and his capture is also unrelated to the breaking of the ordning and doesn't require that plot point. It's just introduced without any forewarning in the middle, and then still doesn't come up until the end, the last 30 pages of the adventure.

...Everything in an adventure should build and work towards the climax.
I suspect this is where our needs as DMs diverge. When I look at my own preparation for sandbox campaigns, my narratives are light touches - a motivation here, a setting there - that will unfold at the table dependent upon the actions of my players. There's little value in overdoing it because my characters might focus their attention on something I at first expected to be relatively minor. The last thing I want is everything in the adventure tightly stitched together and working towards the climax. Rather I want space to let the story unfold. For me that is why I appreciate SKT's ending: by choosing a simple, yet symbolically sound, over-arching plot, the designers provide the exact tools needed to manage a sandbox campaign. I could even overturn it - Hekaton isn't restored - everything falls on Serissa to prove herself as Queen and/or make good the revised Ordning. Reflecting on that, I think sandboxes benefit from simple, sound concepts, that are given light treatment... that will unfold at the table. The plethora of cleverly detailed short dungeons fit neatly into that.

My key criticism is that where I do invest time for sandbox DMing is on NPCs and encounter-groups. I understand why the designers want to refer to the MM, but I wish they had invested more page count in detailed NPCs at various levels (say 6-12), and encounter groups. I think the Runequest campaign Griffon Mountain is exemplary for doing that. I wish we had more of that here. I also wish the map of the north was a fold-out. For those reasons I'd put SKT at 4.5/5. It's very good. Thoughtfully worked out. Some wonderful short dungeons. Just lacking a few elements for sandbox that would have made it a solid 5.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
A large part of SKT's "replayability" comes from the fact that it is broken, and different DMs will fix it in different ways. That's a bug, not a feature.

Well no, that's not accurate at all. It's replayability comes from having lots of different sections to explore but not needing all those sections for any one adventure. It has nothing to do with being "broken".
 

Well no, that's not accurate at all. It's replayability comes from having lots of different sections to explore but not needing all those sections for any one adventure. It has nothing to do with being "broken".

Exactly. I'm basically running the adventure as-is, with only minimal tweaks that any normal DM would do (seeding plot points and foreshadowing, and extra encounters here and there). I honestly changed OotA more when running it than I have SKT so far...
 

The_Gneech

Explorer
I just picked it up and it looks mighty cool, but I won't be able to post a review until I've read it. That said, I'm watching threads like this looking for things to keep an eye on.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

In this case the symbolism is straight-forward and traditional. The feudal King rules by Divine Right. Due to the terms of the Ornding that is made literally true for giant society. If the King displeases his gods, as Heketon does by failing to rise to face the dragons, his Divine Right weakens. Again that is made literally true in SKT via the breaking of the Ordning. The King's Divine Right is withdrawn. A traditional world-upside-down (charivari) event then takes place, in which the daughters murder the mother and shackle the father. Further symbolically apt situations arise throughout giant-dom, such as Guh's obsession (making her a parody of appropriate chiefdom) and Kayalithica's false oracle. The giants act out an appropriate turmoil in response to their King's failings. Iymrith's literal duplicity is another perfect piece of symbolism.

When the players restore Hekaton to the throne this marks forgiveness or opportunity to repent. In terms of the traditional structure, the *only* situation in which he could be returned to the throne is one in which the Ordning is restored (or restoring). We mustn't overlook too that there has been an appropriate spiritual progress: at the end the King admits that he has misjudged the small folk. He accepts a duty to make amends (by opposing dragons as his gods intend).
Which is cool but probably reading far more into it than the designers planned. In fact, you probably just wrote more about this than is actually in the module. Your bringing your own information and filling in gaps that otherwise exist in the module. Which is fine, but just because you can read between the lines and fill in the gaps doesn't mean the gaps don't exist.

Oh, and what happens if Hekaton dies? Which is a very real possibility?

Jester David, sometimes people can just agree to the differences that makes something worthwhile.
I view SKT as a good but flawed adventure. I try not to reduce things to binaries. SKT has its good points and its bad points. And there is a lot that is very much worthwhile in the text.

But this thread is about the flaws in SKT, and why it is being reviewed so poorly. Where the problems exist. Which is important to identify, otherwise you won't be able to address them at the table.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Which is cool but probably reading far more into it than the designers planned. In fact, you probably just wrote more about this than is actually in the module. Your bringing your own information and filling in gaps that otherwise exist in the module. Which is fine, but just because you can read between the lines and fill in the gaps doesn't mean the gaps don't exist.
It's going to scupper a lot of narrative analysis now that we know symbolism can't operate without conscious intent ;) Seriously though, you say "gaps", I say "space".

The authors are highly experienced designers: both the symbolism and the space are intentional and valuable.

Oh, and what happens if Hekaton dies? Which is a very real possibility?
That pretty much nails why I like RPG over books: I'm delighted if Hekaton dies! In that case, his failures prove too grave and Divine Right passes to someone else. As DM I would go with one of the evil giants, to spice things up a bit. SKT certainly begs the question of what happens if the Ordning is restored with an evil giant kind at the top?

But this is not a serious accusation, surely? If a published adventure denied opportunity for my players to fail or bring about alternate endings, then for me that adventure would be weak indeed. Imagine a Tomb of Horrors where Acerak cannot prevail?
 
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