Is the age of discounts over?

[Mystaros]

That's never been in question. The argument was made that they were a critical portion of the RPG industry and there's been nothing substantial offered to suggest that, other than Ryan Dancey's word.

And again, his company, while he was there, got out of the RPG retail market. WotC clearly does not believe it was a critical component of selling RPGs.

Utterly incorrect. Wizards got out of the game retail business because it did not fit their business model. A portion of that was the level of support at which the retail stores were run made them unprofitable in the context of the business model for Wizards. It had nothing whatsoever to do with whether they believed retail was a critical component of selling RPGs.

 

[Mystaros]

No. I've never seen Borders (b&m, not their online store) offer even the slightest discount from MSRP on RPG books.

What I'm saying is that contractually forcing Borders to sell RPG books at MSRP will have absolutely no impact on the fact that I pay MSRP-30% when I buy RPG books at Borders because said books have *always* been priced at MSRP and would continue to be priced at MSRP regardless of the outcome of this ruling.

Under the terms of a Price Flooring Agreement, should Wizards of the Coast decide to use one in its contracts, Borders would not be able to offer that 30% discount on D&D books, regardless of how it is construed as a discount or coupon or price club bonus or what have you. Doesn't matter how it is done, to sell that product for less than the Price Floor would be a breach of contract.

Of course, it would then be up to WotC to police the maintenance of their contract... which is a whole different thing altogether.

 

[Twowolves]

I have no doubt my perception of the FLGS is shaped by the city in which I live - Toronto. It's one of the largest metropolitan areas in North America. NY and LA are bigger and Chicago somewhat larger - but that's it.

THREADJACK!!

Dallas/Fort Worth Metro is bigger (6 million+). Chicago propper has 3 million, and the Chicago Metro has 9.5 million. The Atlanta Metro area has 5.1 million and the Washington D.C. Metro area has almost 5.3 million, not including the Baltimore area (which jumps it up to over 8 million). Mexico City (still in North America) is 8.7 million, with the "metro" area over 19 million.

I'm sure Toronto is big, but it's not even in the top 5, likely not even top 10 North American cities.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic at hand....

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Under the terms of a Price Flooring Agreement, should Wizards of the Coast decide to use one in its contracts, Borders would not be able to offer that 30% discount on D&D books, regardless of how it is construed as a discount or coupon or price club bonus or what have you. Doesn't matter how it is done, to sell that product for less than the Price Floor would be a breach of contract.

Of course, it would then be up to WotC to police the maintenance of their contract... which is a whole different thing altogether.

But an end-around would be to establish programs such as giving a $10 gift certificate for every $100 in purchases - or some other similar incentive. As long as they don't tie it specifically to WotC products, then WotC (or any other publisher with a similar agreement) would have no legal leg to stand on. The product is being sold at the required price. The publishers cannot prevent gift certificates from being used on their products, and they have no ability to prevent the store from giving them away as sales incentives.

 

[Steel_Wind]

THREADJACK!!

Dallas/Fort Worth Metro is bigger (6 million+). Chicago propper has 3 million, and the Chicago Metro has 9.5 million. The Atlanta Metro area has 5.1 million and the Washington D.C. Metro area has almost 5.3 million, not including the Baltimore area (which jumps it up to over 8 million). Mexico City (still in North America) is 8.7 million, with the "metro" area over 19 million.

I'm sure Toronto is big, but it's not even in the top 5, likely not even top 10 North American cities.

You need to count the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) and not Toronto proper. The suburbs get left out of the main city's population, elsewise. Current GTA pop is 5.9 million.

To be honest, the other burbs left out of that figure, but which nevertheless are composed of people who work here and sleep in those communities - puts it closer to 7 million. It's a big city.

Even using current GTA def, in metropolitan areas, according to this year's figures, it's fifth, leaving aside Mexico City. It's a touch larger than Philly and bigger than Atlanta and DC. It's a touch larger than Houston. I was wrong and it looks like Dallas/Forth worth DOES beat it by 100k or so. By 2010, that will no longer be true.

LA, NY and Chicago are bigger as well. I discounted Mexico City, as you pointed out.

 

[Storm Raven]

Under the terms of a Price Flooring Agreement, should Wizards of the Coast decide to use one in its contracts, Borders would not be able to offer that 30% discount on D&D books, regardless of how it is construed as a discount or coupon or price club bonus or what have you. Doesn't matter how it is done, to sell that product for less than the Price Floor would be a breach of contract.

Of course, it won't be in Border's contract with WotC if Borders doesn't want it. Borders and the other large retailers are likely influential enough, and their business volume is probably large enough that they can negotiate these contracts from a position of strength - with the threat that they will simply not carry any of WotC's books if WotC insists on a minimum price clause that Borders doesn't like.

This will pretty much apply to most large retailers (Amazon, Wal-Mart, Barnes & Noble, etc.) when dealing with most publishing companies. (For that matter, this will apply to most large retailers when dealing with suppliers of just about any product). The retailers who are likely to be subjected to minimum pricing clauses in their contracts will be the ones too small to hurt the publishers by refusing to stock their products. Anyone who thinks that this decision will help the "little guy" is probably deluding themselves.

 

[Mercule]

Given a choice between the internet, the traditional FLGS shops still very much a fixture of the market in Toronto and the B&N model you point to in the USA, I don't think there is any question as a hobby games mftr which one sells my product best and introduces it to new players the most effectively.

If I were in Toronto, I'd almost certainly visit those stores -- and I'm deeply jealous. When I lived in Ames, I did most of my shopping at Mayhem, even when they didn't have the best prices, because they were more than just a "point of sale".

Those kind of store definitely add value. But, in adding that value, they justify their prices and become competitive. The hole in the wall stores don't do that.

 

[Steel_Wind]

If I were in Toronto, I'd almost certainly visit those stores -- and I'm deeply jealous. When I lived in Ames, I did most of my shopping at Mayhem, even when they didn't have the best prices, because they were more than just a "point of sale".

Those kind of store definitely add value. But, in adding that value, they justify their prices and become competitive. The hole in the wall stores don't do that.

Maybe. But I think what's closer to the truth is that if I lived where you live and I had the products shipped for free to my mail-box, I would probably use that means of buying product far more.

I'm not at all arguing that the ability to order from a direct discounter with ultra-cheapo shipping does not hath its virtues from the perspective of an educated consumer. It clearly is preferential in terms of price.

But from the industry's perspective of trying to sustain and grow the hobby over years, it falls short of the mark.

 

[Delta]

If you look at raw city populations in US/Canada, Toronto comes in at #4:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_municipalities_in_Canada_by_population

If you look at total metropolitan area, then Toronto comes in at #10:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Canada

 

[Steel_Wind]

If you look at total metropolitan area, then Toronto comes in at #10:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas

According to that link, it's sixth, not 10th. I think you looked at 2001 figures, not 2006.

The devil is in the details of what the bureaus are counting as "metropolitan areas". Because of the way municipal funding and parliamentary ridings works, there is a large lobby in the areas surrounding Toronto area to not be counted as part of the GTA. They believe it reduces municipal funding and deprives them of seats in the federal government. There is therefore a census area, the transit area and the economic area.

The link you posted is census area.

Census its 5.55 million, Transit it's 5.9, Economic its 7 million

Anyways - enough threadjack.