D&D 5E (2014) Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"

Bill Zebub · Nov 10, 2022

DEFCON 1 said:
If you are a orc band that got attacked by these interlopers and they then ran off after you defended yourself... you don't need to go chasing after them. You let them run off, and then you pack up your gear and head off for safer pastures. Why continue a fight that you don't need to get into?

For the XP! Just think how surprised the next batch of murder hobos will be when they discover you've all leveled up and now have the Great Weapon Master feat.

More seriously:

1) If you're an orc band those adventurers probably look wealthy.
2) Whenever monsters flee we (as players) worry that they'll come back with even more of their friends. Why wouldn't monsters have the same thought?

Bill Zebub · Nov 10, 2022

Also, best practices for retreating involve sacrificing the gnome.

DEFCON 1 · Nov 10, 2022

Bill Zebub said:
1) If you're an orc band those adventurers probably look wealthy.
2) Whenever monsters flee we (as players) worry that they'll come back with even more of their friends. Why wouldn't monsters have the same thought?

I'm not saying there aren't reasons why this orc band wouldn't chase the PCs down in a specific instance. But there's also plenty of reasons why they wouldn't. You as the DM just need to occasionally think of one, and then have the monsters react accordingly.

And how you choose your monster reactions will inform your players of what they will need to do to survive. If you always chase them down when they try and retreat, of course they will stop bothering to try and retreat. But if retreat is something that you as DM want to encourage in your players... then sometimes you gotta let them retreat and do so successfully. Because again... you don't HAVE to keep chasing them.

CleverNickName · Nov 10, 2022

Are there set rules for pursuit and retreat? I've seen lots of house-rules and custom work-arounds, but I don't remember seeing them in the rules.

Bill Zebub · Nov 10, 2022

DEFCON 1 said:
I'm not saying there aren't reasons why this orc band wouldn't chase the PCs down in a specific instance. But there's also plenty of reasons why they wouldn't. You as the DM just need to occasionally think of one, and then have the monsters react accordingly.

And how you choose your monster reactions will inform your players of what they will need to do to survive. If you always chase them down when they try and retreat, of course they will stop bothering to try and retreat. But if retreat is something that you as DM want to encourage in your players... then sometimes you gotta let them retreat and do so successfully. Because again... you don't HAVE to keep chasing them.

Yes, that's all perfectly reasonable.

This might be yet another case where each side is assuming the other is making a more extreme argument than they actually are.

Bill Zebub · Nov 10, 2022

CleverNickName said:
Are there set rules for pursuit and retreat? I've seen lots of house-rules and custom work-arounds, but I don't remember seeing them in the rules.

Not that I know of, but then again I don't actually read my DMG.

DEFCON 1 · Nov 10, 2022

Bill Zebub said:
Yes, that's all perfectly reasonable.

This might be yet another case where each side is assuming the other is making a more extreme argument than they actually are.

Maybe. But I was just responding off of @Vaalingrade original reply that seemed to indicate that they though retreat was not "easy" because monsters and PCs had the same mechanical speed. And thus the game mechanics were all that mattered in this situation.

Vaalingrade · Nov 10, 2022

DEFCON 1 said:
No.. you are CHOOSING to make it actively difficult for the players to retreat. The GAME is not telling you to have these orcs believe "the murderous goons might return to finish the job? Because I want vengeance? Because We're great warriors who will not suffer the insult? Because it's clear we have the advantage because they ran and if they regroup with a larger force, we might lose that"... YOU are doing that. YOU. Not the game. YOU.

This is super weird.

Like, the players don't know whether the people they hit and run will retaliate or thank them kindly for killing Bob because he was a jerk anyway, right?

And I assume that not literally every foe they do this to will adamantly refuse to give chase, right?

And the second something does give chase the players will see how the game straight up punishes them mechanically for doing so, right?

So they're going to learn not to not retreat at some time or other anyway because they don't actually know when the monster will roll over an snuggle them on the way out, or rain ranged murder into their exposed backs and one result is enough to remove the value of the other.

Because the mechanics suck, this only leaves the option to never play an enemy was anything but uncaring to forgiving toward hit and run tactics instead of actively seeking out better chase mechanics.

This isn't even getting into the anti-heroic feeling of having to break and run from everything because the DM likes a playstyle the game doesn't support. Or the fact that I feel like players aren't going to trust a DM who will absolutely murder them for not retreating won't use the rules to murder them for retreating. Because the point is operant conditioning.