Is the Illusionist Dead?

[Particle_Man]

I have toyed with the idea of illusions doing "temporary damage" (like temporary hit points -- the damage would be negated either with a successful will save (usually one chance) or when the duration of the spell runs out, but a character could theoretically die first).

I have also thought of using the Astral Constructs from Expanded Psionic Handbook as a "Base monster" concealed by the illusion. So you have something doing real damage that looks like an orc, ogre, red dragon, etc.

I also liked the idea from HARP of illusionists having a "memorization bank" of monsters they have encountered, to do realistic illusions of. But I guess that cuts down on versatility.

Not sure if any of these would pan out, but I like the first idea and have shown it to a few people. I will wait for feedback.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As someone further up-thread hinted, why should an illusionist be limited to what he's seen?

He has an imagination, after all. Maybe he has noticed that many beasties in the PMP are oddball combinations of other creatures, so If a Hippogriff, why not an Anteleopard or a Dracotroll? And if he's seen ANY extraplanar beings, he can add even further to his repetoir.

And no bonuses should accrue to the saving throws of the targets of his improbable beasties because they are just as aware of the world's fauna as he is!

As for why the shadow spells are a sorcerer's friend, it is because rather than be limited by the the couple of spells he ACTUALLY knows, he can simulate almost any spell he has witnessed being cast. Thus, a sorcerer with shadow evocation can affect creatures immune to fire, lighning, cold, etc., wheras his buddy who has Fireball or Flame Arrow as his main 3rd level attack spell is going to be useless when facing that 21HD Flame Elemental the dumb fighter just released...

Sure, its costly, but it adds flexibility. And at that, its no worse than adding most metamagic feats to a spell.

 

[Testament]

Shadow conjuration is devestating. Try conjuring a huge fiendish centipede, or a Giant stag beetle with it sometime.

30 ft above the enemy's head.

 

[Simplicity]

As for why the shadow spells are a sorcerer's friend, it is because rather than be limited by the the couple of spells he ACTUALLY knows, he can simulate almost any spell he has witnessed being cast. Thus, a sorcerer with shadow evocation can affect creatures immune to fire, lighning, cold, etc., wheras his buddy who has Fireball or Flame Arrow as his main 3rd level attack spell is going to be useless when facing that 21HD Flame Elemental the dumb fighter just released...

Like I said, Shadow Evocation, MAYBE I can understand for the versitility aspect. But why shadow conjuration? Conjuration spells are not that versatile. Oh sure, Summon Monster is versatile in and of itself... But why not just get the Summon Monster spell?

Shadow conjuration is devestating. Try conjuring a huge fiendish centipede, or a Giant stag beetle with it sometime.

30 ft above the enemy's head.

Arrggg... It's a fourth level spell! You can do that with a third level spell called Summon Monster III. Why not summon 1-3 actual huge fiendish centipedes 30 ft over the enemy's head by using Summon Monster IV?!?!?!? If you put Mr. Illusionary centipede 30 ft over the enemies head, it would lose it's SIX hitpoints in the fall and immediately disappear.

You guys aren't getting what I'm saying.

Look at the spells you can cast with Shadow Conjuration:
1st Level -
Grease: Can be done, but do you really want to sacrifice a 4th level spell for it?
Mage Armor: Illusionary armor... Hmm... so if the enemy doesn't realize he actually hit you does it hurt?
Mount: You can make other people imagine you have a horse! Yay!
Obscuring Mist: Again. 4th level spell slot.
Summon Monster I: Probably not, unless you like badgers.
Unseen Servant: An invisible illusion? That pretends to get things for you?

2nd Level -
Acid Arrow: Maybe okay if you've gotta face a troll. Otherwise, no.
Fog Cloud: Wow. Fog. No.
Glitterdust: The blinding is useful... The outlining of invisible creatures with dust that isn't there seems a little wonky, but okay...
Summon Monster II: Why II when you can III?
Summon Swarm: Could be useful.
Web: Definitely Useful.

3rd Level -
Phantom Steed: Now you can pretend to have a horse for longer!
Sepia Snake Sigil M: How often do you get to use this spell? Really?
Sleet Storm: Semi-weak.
Stinking Cloud: Probably the spell most used other than summons.
Summon Monster III: Paydirt.

So Shadow Conjuration let's you choose between:
1) Summon Monster III
2) Stinking Cloud
3) Web
4) Summon Swarm
5) Glitterdust

Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud give saves on their own... So they're great if
you're opponent fails a Will Save for the illusion, and the spell's save also. Any summons only have 1/5 hp!

This is what someone gives up picking Summon Monster IV for?

THE SPELL IS CRAP.

 

[Simplicity]

The sad part is: Shadow Evocation is such a better spell not really because of the versatility but because the Evocation school is so overpowered. Especially compared to Illusion. It just gives the illusionist a taste of what it would be like if he hadn't picked a school of magic that sucked.

 

[Campbell]

The advantages are also easy to identify:

1.) Illusions are the most versatile type of spells in the game.
2.) A failed save often negates an opponent entirely.
3.) Many of the high damage dealing foes (giants, etc...) have low will saves as it is often a bad save for burly types and most burly types have lower wisdom than dexterity or constitution.
4.) Illusions have a duration of concentration, meaning that they can last for very long periods of time.
5.) *You do not get a save versus an illusion (figment, etc ...) until you interact with it or study it*. As such, an illusion can do its job with no save available for your enemy.

I'm not entirely sure I agree that having a duration of concentration is an advantage. While illusions can indeed last for a meaningful amount of time outside of combat situations, having to use a standard action every round in order to maintain your spell effects means that most illusions are not going to be all that useful within the confines of combat.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Simplicity, we understood your assertion.

The counterassertion is that, with a limited spellbook, the guy with Shadow Conjuration essentially has ALL of those conjuration spells (albeit weakened), and can bypass them for something else.

Flexibility.

 

[Testament]

Arrggg... It's a fourth level spell! You can do that with a third level spell called Summon Monster III. Why not summon 1-3 actual huge fiendish centipedes 30 ft over the enemy's head by using Summon Monster IV?!?!?!? If you put Mr. Illusionary centipede 30 ft over the enemies head, it would lose it's SIX hitpoints in the fall and immediately disappear.

Because you can't summon creatures in the air. That'd be a hostile environment to them, since they'll fall and take damage. Do it with Greater Shadow Conjuration and since they're illusory, I can't see why that'd trigger the danger condition.

You guys aren't getting what I'm saying.

Look at the spells you can cast with Shadow Conjuration:
1st Level -
Grease: Can be done, but do you really want to sacrifice a 4th level spell for it?
Mage Armor: Illusionary armor... Hmm... so if the enemy doesn't realize he actually hit you does it hurt?
Mount: You can make other people imagine you have a horse! Yay!
Obscuring Mist: Again. 4th level spell slot.
Summon Monster I: Probably not, unless you like badgers.
Unseen Servant: An invisible illusion? That pretends to get things for you?

2nd Level -
Acid Arrow: Maybe okay if you've gotta face a troll. Otherwise, no.
Fog Cloud: Wow. Fog. No.
Glitterdust: The blinding is useful... The outlining of invisible creatures with dust that isn't there seems a little wonky, but okay...
Summon Monster II: Why II when you can III?
Summon Swarm: Could be useful.
Web: Definitely Useful.

3rd Level -
Phantom Steed: Now you can pretend to have a horse for longer!
Sepia Snake Sigil M: How often do you get to use this spell? Really?
Sleet Storm: Semi-weak.
Stinking Cloud: Probably the spell most used other than summons.
Summon Monster III: Paydirt.

So Shadow Conjuration let's you choose between:
1) Summon Monster III
2) Stinking Cloud
3) Web
4) Summon Swarm
5) Glitterdust

Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud give saves on their own... So they're great if
you're opponent fails a Will Save for the illusion, and the spell's save also. Any summons only have 1/5 hp!

This is what someone gives up picking Summon Monster IV for?
THE SPELL IS CRAP.

You're missing the fact that Shadow Conjuration is ALL OF THESE SPELLS in one package. That's why I know several sorcerors who have picked it up. Two of them are Gnomes to boot, so there's another point of save DC.

And finally, the ultimate answer as to why you'd use Shadow spells. Shadowcraft Mage, one of the most broken PrCs ever printed my WotC.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Testament: "Jinx!" (sorta)

 

[Simplicity]

Because you can't summon creatures in the air. That'd be a hostile environment to them, since they'll fall and take damage. Do it with Greater Shadow Conjuration and since they're illusory, I can't see why that'd trigger the danger condition.

(Checking the rules...)

True enough, but again: the illusionary monster probably disappears as soon as it hits something on the way down. So the effect is going to be the player or monster saying, "Oh crap! A centipede! Arg! It landed on me! Uh... I guess it didn't."

33-99 hit points worth of centipedes is better than 6 hit points worth of centipede. Regardless of altitude. Escpecially when the non-illusionary is AC 16... and the illusionary is AC 9! Tell me something: What spell level should be a spell that summons an AC 9 creature with 6 hitpoints that does a MAX of 3.2 damage a round (plus 20% chance of poison) if you make a Will save and a MAX of 16 (plus poison) otherwise? Sounds kind of like the Daze spell to me, because this guy is kleenex. Maybe magic missile because he might be able to get off a single attack before poofing.

Plus, any wizard with knowledge of conjuration spells should know something is odd about summonings in midair...

You're missing the fact that Shadow Conjuration is ALL OF THESE SPELLS in one package. That's why I know several sorcerors who have picked it up. Two of them are Gnomes to boot, so there's another point of save DC.

So, it's like having a whole bag of dog turds that you can CHOOSE from.
Wow. Count me out.

If you get past Spellcraft (for every person who sees it), and you get past a Will Save (for every person who interacts with it), and you get past a Reflex or Fortitude save (for some person affected) the spell works, but its a lower level spell than the spell slot you sacrifice AND it's less effective than the actual spell you wanted to cast!

Ooooooooh.... I can see why people tremble in the presence of an illusionist.