Is the math off?

Do you think the math is off or is it just fine as it is?

  • Yes, I think the math is off and needs to be fixed!

    Votes: 62 37.6%
  • No, I think the math is just fine as is.

    Votes: 52 31.5%
  • Both sides have equal merit, it just depends on the group.

    Votes: 27 16.4%
  • Lemonmath

    Votes: 24 14.5%

Isn't game-balance subjective, though? IME it sure seems to be: there are players and groups that prefer much more (or less) of a challenge than others do.
Nope. If it were, statements like "more challenging" would be meaningless -- to discuss it, you need to know what "normal challenging" means, and that requires an understanding of the game's design.

What you get out of the game is subjective, and how you use the game is entirely up to you. However, the designers designed it with certain assumptions, and ignoring those assumptions won't help you use it at all.

Cheers, -- N
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Then, WotC jumps in and hands everyone a +3 to attack (but also a -1 Feat penalty to feat choices). Clearly, they didn't intend for that 3-point gap to exist... or if they previously did, someone decided they now don't.
I still don't see why introducing Expertise feats automatically leads to handing "everyone a +3 to attack (but also a -1 Feat penalty to feat choices)." Perhaps they decided the cost of a feat was worth an eventual +3 to attack.*

Why are to-hit numbers so utterly pivotal that they need to be maximized at all costs? Yes, every class and most every action involves hitting, but if I hit 5-15% less frequently but each of my hits deal more damage, or I get more attacks, or I get options to help bypass immunities/resistances, or I improve my defenses/healing so that I survive longer, etc. how is that 5-15% chance of hitting so much better than any of those other options, which, perhaps not as directly, also improve the PC's ability to kill monsters?

Heck, if you want to get technical, something as basic as Improved Initiative in many battles can give you an entire extra ROUND right at 1st level and for all 30 levels! What's a gradual 5-15% better to-hit when I can get extra move & standard actions for ALL 30 levels of my PC's career?

Not to mention all of the feats that give PCs more options to choose from including additional powers and abilities that can make it more likely to have the right tool for the job which can easily outweigh a 5-15% improvement to the attack roll, or improve skills (how much does that 5-15% matter when you don't notice that acid pit trap or when you are completely bypassing a combat through a skill challenge?), or simply make your PC more interesting.

To me, at least, is just looks like they decided you could pay the cost of a feat, and get a 5-15% better chance to hit. Simple and straightforward, no back-door errata. Of course you are reducing your other customization options by 5.5% (17 more feats rather than 18) and all of the options those 1300+ feats offer your PC - many of which can help you kill monsters just as well as hitting a little more frequently.

Pay a feat then hit more often - but your hits aren't any more powerful, your skills aren't any better, you don't gain any additional powers, etc. etc. What am I missing that makes this a fix that is necessary to all PCs and not just another bonus at the cost of a feat?


* Oh and don't forget, that bonus is only for a particular implement or weapon group - so the PC is out of luck if:
a) You find a better weapon or implement before you get a chance to retrain the feat, or
b) have magic weapons or implements that are good for different situations, or
c) have a class that benefits from both implements and weapons that aren't the same.
From the discussions, it is portrayed both as a 15% better chance to hit (which is true only in the final 1/6th of your career - it's only a 5% better chance for half of your PC's life) and as an automatic bonus on all powers, which is often but not necessarily always the case.

(Wow, that looks rantish. Sorry, I'm just honestly thinking I must be missing something when so many reasonable and knowledgeable posters think the Expertise feats are necessary for PCs or else they are "worse at their jobs". It literally makes zero sense to me.)
 

(Wow, that looks rantish. Sorry, I'm just honestly thinking I must be missing something when so many reasonable and knowledgeable posters think the Expertise feats are necessary for PCs or else they are "worse at their jobs". It literally makes zero sense to me.)
Yeah, I think you are. What feats, specifically, do you think would hedge out spending 1 feat on expertise? How does missing more often _not_ mean that a character is worse?
 

Yeah, I think you are. What feats, specifically, do you think would hedge out spending 1 feat on expertise? How does missing more often _not_ mean that a character is worse?

ok let me jump in here... if I am hitting an exceptable amount in my mind with out it AND want another feat then guess what...I don't need expertise.

Now the answer will of cource be if you are hitting an exceptable amount isn't mroe better...to witch I say yes and no...if I am happy with needing 12 to hit, but not happy with only 4 trained skills doesn't it make more sense to take skill training???


edit: by the way my 10th level eladrin warlord has the following feats: Fey Command, Heavy Sheild prof, Improved Tactics, Lend Might, Tactical Assault, Tactical Inspiration

My 11th and 12th level feats (I am not sure whitch I will take first) Sheild Speaclization, and Tactician’s Word

so i have 8 feats more important to me then expertise... I get 4 more paragon feats and I plan on
combat comander, Fey tactics, paragon def... I also still want the heroic feats tactical feint, eladrin soldier, and I am going back and forth between IMproved intiative and Daanger sense...
 
Last edited:

I find ignoring their assumptions works quite well. I like to run my game, not theirs. :D
I wouldn't have pegged you as an apostle of "Ignorance Is Bliss", but it's your game. Enjoy it.

I still don't see why introducing Expertise feats automatically leads to handing "everyone a +3 to attack (but also a -1 Feat penalty to feat choices)." Perhaps they decided the cost of a feat was worth an eventual +3 to attack.*
Do you honestly think any other published feat is worth a +3 to attack? If so, which one?

Why are to-hit numbers so utterly pivotal that they need to be maximized at all costs?
They're not. For example, you'll see many smart people recommend starting with an 18 (post-racial) in your primary attack stat, instead of a 20. Clearly they think a +1 to attack isn't worth maximizing "at all costs". Starting with a 20 is too expensive.

But a feat is cheap.

(Wow, that looks rantish. Sorry, I'm just honestly thinking I must be missing something when so many reasonable and knowledgeable posters think the Expertise feats are necessary for PCs or else they are "worse at their jobs". It literally makes zero sense to me.)
Well, aside from my own (alleged) reasonable & knowledgeable-ness, the effect of the Expertise bonus has become pervasive in WotC's more recent products.

Look at the most recently published racial attack powers, like the Abyssal Genasi's Acid Surge: +3 at Heroic, +6 at Paragon, and +9 at Epic tier. Compare that to the regular FRPG Genasi's racial attack powers, like Firepulse: +2 at Heroic, +4 at paragon, +6 at Epic tier.

Acid Genasi power is in Dragon 380 (p.19); Fire Genasi power I got from the Compendium.

Cheers, -- N
 

I wouldn't have pegged you as an apostle of "Ignorance Is Bliss", but it's your game. Enjoy it.

I'm not ignorant of the way the game was designed, I've had some great conversations with many of the designers about it. Knowing what they did and why allows me to know what I can ignore and change to fit the way I want to run the game and play it.
 

I'm not ignorant of the way the game was designed, I've had some great conversations with many of the designers about it. Knowing what they did and why allows me to know what I can ignore and change to fit the way I want to run the game and play it.
Ah, then it's just a misunderstanding on my part. When I say "ignoring the rules", I meant being ignorant of them -- something that some people seem to wish to do in these math threads.

Absolutely, once you have a grip on the game, you can bend it into many usable shapes as you desire. I wouldn't call that ignoring the rules, though. I'd call that making informed choices about them.

Cheers, -- N
 

Look at the most recently published racial attack powers, like the Abyssal Genasi's Acid Surge: +3 at Heroic, +6 at Paragon, and +9 at Epic tier. Compare that to the regular FRPG Genasi's racial attack powers, like Firepulse: +2 at Heroic, +4 at paragon, +6 at Epic tier.

Acid Genasi power is in Dragon 380 (p.19); Fire Genasi power I got from the Compendium.

Cheers, -- N

Emphasis mine.

Wait... you mean it's a power like the Dragonborn's "Dragon breath", except it has "Implement expertise" tacked into it innately? (+1 higher than Dragon breath at heroic, +2 higher at paragon, and +3 higher at epic)? O.o

That does sorta say something about the math, or that Wizard's is adding 'power creep' to entice people to use the new stuff. Or that Abyssal power isn't as good as Dragon Breath damage/area wise... but yeah.
 

Wait... you mean it's a power like the Dragonborn's "Dragon breath", except it has "Implement expertise" tacked into it innately? (+1 higher than Dragon breath at heroic, +2 higher at paragon, and +3 higher at epic)? O.o
Yep. That is exactly the point I was making there.

That does sorta say something about the math, or that Wizard's is adding 'power creep' to entice people to use the new stuff. Or that Abyssal power isn't as good as Dragon Breath damage/area wise... but yeah.
Yeah, that argument could be made, so I compared it to earlier published powers from the same race.

(It could also be argued that Dragon is somehow at fault for the power creep, but I personally doubt that.)

We'll know for sure if the PHB3 adds any races with racial attack powers.

Cheers, -- N
 

Remove ads

Top