Is the math off?

[Kzach]

Do you honestly think any other published feat is worth a +3 to attack? If so, which one?

I think this is the biggest problem with these feats. Not the fact that they're included, but that they're SO much better than any other feat in existence that they're completely no-brainers to take.

I've always had a golden rule when eye-balling balance issues, and that's summed up as follows: if it's a hard choice to take or not to take, it's balanced. If it's a no-brainer, then put it back on the drawing board.

I can build an optimised character that, along with solid team-work, never really needs these additional gap-filler feats. But then again, they're really so damned good that it becomes a matter of trying to justify to myself why I WOULDN'T take them.

 

[kenmarable]

Do you honestly think any other published feat is worth a +3 to attack? If so, which one?

I guess it's different perspective, but I see it as a +1 to attack for almost half (or more) of the time I play my PC. And there's plenty of feats comparable to or better than a +1 to attack.

If the campaign actually stays together for 25 levels (and a great many unfortunately end before reaching that point), THEN I'll have a +3 to attack. But at that point how does a +3 to attack compare to the available Epic feat options?

I don't know if the difference is looking at playing a PC for 30 levels, or looking at a level 30 PC, but there are different motivations in each.

Well, aside from my own (alleged) reasonable & knowledgeable-ness, the effect of the Expertise bonus has become pervasive in WotC's more recent products.

Look at the most recently published racial attack powers, like the Abyssal Genasi's Acid Surge: +3 at Heroic, +6 at Paragon, and +9 at Epic tier. Compare that to the regular FRPG Genasi's racial attack powers, like Firepulse: +2 at Heroic, +4 at paragon, +6 at Epic tier.

Acid Genasi power is in Dragon 380 (p.19); Fire Genasi power I got from the Compendium.

Cheers, -- N

Well, yeah, that is wacky. But for firepulse it's an immediate reaction, and acid surge is a move action. But acid surge also has a shift half your speed, including shifting through enemy spaces. But it also affects all creatures whose space you enter so watch out for allies (which admittedly is probably rarely an issue). But even still it has fewer potential targets than dragon breath. But acid surge does more damage as well. So they are the closest ones to compare, but they still have many differences. Possibly more importantly, fire genasi also get a +1 to Reflex which probably comes up FAR more often than the acid genasi breathing underwater in most campaigns.

Ok, I agree that it's still probably out of whack. However, a lot of these math discussions seem to leave out the 'But's and just point out the to-hit bonus in a vacuum.

 

[Dausuul]

I am not talking about the entire party. A cleric, can do that every round, at will (as long as they hit).

A cleric can give that bonus to one ally, if she hits each round, if she's willing to use the same at-will over and over (which means, short of an action point, she isn't using any other standard-action powers). What about the other 4 PCs, including the cleric herself, who aren't getting any bonus from the cleric at all for that round? What about the rounds when the cleric misses?

If the cleric has a +8 Strength bonus, and hits 50% of the time, then the bonus that the average party member can expect to see from Righteous Brand is +0.8. (+8, divided among 5 party members - the cleric counts too! - times 50%.) And that's a power bonus, so it won't stack with most other cleric abilities.

Then consider the party might not even have a leader. Or the leader might not be loaded down with powers that grant attack bonuses.

I think +2 is an entirely reasonable "average leader bonus."

 

[keterys]

I guess it's different perspective, but I see it as a +1 to attack for almost half (or more) of the time I play my PC. And there's plenty of feats comparable to or better than a +1 to attack.

But once it's +2 or +3, that comparison goes away. There wouldn't be so much hoopla if it was +1, and since the _complaint_ with the math is that as you get into high levels like 15+ the math drifts and expertise gives a large bonus specifically for those levels... then treating it as +1 doesn't make sense.

If the campaign actually stays together for 25 levels (and a great many unfortunately end before reaching that point), THEN I'll have a +3 to attack. But at that point how does a +3 to attack compare to the available Epic feat options?

It shreds them into a fine mist. +attack only gets more useful as you get higher level, not less. Not only does it still improve damage by just as much, but now your riders on attacks are things like 'stun' instead of 'prone' on the attack and that's immense. Or things like Storm and Hurricane of Blades where not missing pays off in massive damage.

I don't know if the difference is looking at playing a PC for 30 levels, or looking at a level 30 PC, but there are different motivations in each.

The 'math is off' discussion should really be almost exclusively narrowed to the later half of the levels, especially 21+ since _most_ of the fixing feats don't even appear until then and the gap is only human perceptible around then. Of course people don't see a problem at 7th or 8th. They're not supposed to.

Going from 1st to 8th, monsters gain 7 to hit & defense, players gain +7 to their good FRWs, +6 to their bad FRW, +7 to attack. Difference? -1 to one or maybe two defenses. Not noticeable.

 

[rjdafoe]

A cleric can give that bonus to one ally, if she hits each round, if she's willing to use the same at-will over and over (which means, short of an action point, she isn't using any other standard-action powers). What about the other 4 PCs, including the cleric herself, who aren't getting any bonus from the cleric at all for that round? What about the rounds when the cleric misses?

If the cleric has a +8 Strength bonus, and hits 50% of the time, then the bonus that the average party member can expect to see from Righteous Brand is +0.8. (+8, divided among 5 party members - the cleric counts too! - times 50%.) And that's a power bonus, so it won't stack with most other cleric abilities.

Then consider the party might not even have a leader. Or the leader might not be loaded down with powers that grant attack bonuses.

I think +2 is an entirely reasonable "average leader bonus."

I am talking about Astral Sea (or something like that) it targets WILL not AC.

There is also at least 1 other power (I am sure there are more) that is an encounter power that gives the entire party a bonus (not sure how much). You can also assume (which I think you did) that everyone can get combat advantage every round. (There are powers for that, as well as situational)

If the party does not have a leader, then all your assumptions are thrown out the window as well. What if they don't have a power that targets AC, what if, what if. We can only talk baout the assumptions that a party has 1 person that fills each role, and they are passable (that doesn't mean sub par and it doesn't mean optimized) at that role.

There are other things that are not taken into account:

defenses other than the highest one
some monsters are just tougher than others (and the PCs!)
What about powers that are (score mod) +2?

I don't know about you, but my party, once we start figuring out that there is a low defense, we tend to attack that defense more than the high defense score - by ALOT.

IMO, powers, tactics, and teamwork are too varied to make a blanket statements about bonus and hit percentages. There are too many situational things and too many choices to make in combat and character design to come to any real conclusion, unless you make a big assumption that the party fights the same way. The party would also have to use the same tactics, powers and spells, and have not situational conditions in each combat.

Again, I do not think most groups want to be able to hit the Stirge at 1st level with a 12 and Orcus at 30th level with a 12.

Epic monsters should be tougher and require better tactics, choices, and putting themselves in a position to succeed even if the PCs are Epic themselves. (again in IMO)

 

[Nifft]

I am talking about Astral Sea (or something like that) it targets WILL not AC.

Astral Seal? That imposes a -2 penalty on a critter's defenses (so +2 to the whole party), and it targets Reflex.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

As far as I know, Astral Seal is the most effective at-will for increasing a group's chance to hit.*

Of course, it will still miss a fair chunk of the time so won't apply every round.

* In very small groups, like 2 or 3, Righteous Brand or Furious Smash can have a similar effect (+6 for one of 3 people, frex) but Righteous Brand is less likely to hit than Astral Seal, since Astral Seal's defense penalty is useful for hitting with Astral Seal the next round. Anecdotally, I play one of two melee characters in a 13th level group with a Righteous Brand cleric and I think I get the bonus once every 2 to 3 fights, since she often uses her encounter powers first, and misses with Righteous Brand quite often. Of course, when I do get the bonus it's totally sweet.

 

[Dausuul]

I am talking about Astral Sea (or something like that) it targets WILL not AC.

No idea what power you're talking about here. The Astral Sea is a plane, not a power. There are some powers with "Astral" or "Astral Sea" in the name, but none of them grant attack bonuses that I can see.

Edit: Ah, Astral Seal, right. Defense penalty comes to the same thing. But that a) means the cleric isn't doing any damage that round, b) can still miss on a low roll, and c) only grants... wait for it... +2 to hit! Which is, coincidentally, exactly the value I picked for the leader's across-the-board bonus.

There is also at least 1 other power (I am sure there are more) that is an encounter power that gives the entire party a bonus (not sure how much).

Undoubtedly, but +stat to attacks for the whole party for the whole fight? The only power I can think of that does that is the warlord daily power Lead the Attack, which a) is a daily power and hence not available every combat, and b) requires a hit to work, and c) uses a secondary stat rather than the primary, albeit a secondary stat that's likely to be as high as the primary.

I'm not denying that a leader can be expected to generate a bonus to hit for the party as a whole. I just don't buy your claim that that bonus, averaged across each round against each monster for each player in all combats, is substantially better than +2.

Obviously, any value we plug in for that number is going to be an educated estimate. But your estimate looks insanely high to me, so I want to see what it's based on, if anything.

Again, I do not think most groups want to be able to hit the Stirge at 1st level with a 12 and Orcus at 30th level with a 12.

The point of monster level is to provide a measure of its threat to the PCs. If a 30th-level monster does not pose the same threat to a 30th-level party that a 1st-level monster does to a 1st-level party, then the measure is miscalibrated. You want epic-level fights to be more difficult? No problem, just use monsters at party level + 1 instead of party level (or party level + 5 instead of party level + 4, wherever your group operates).

And if you want monsters that can pose a major threat to even the highest-level party... that's why Orcus is 33rd level. Even at the level cap, he remains a tough customer.

 

[fanboy2000]

Astral Seal? That imposes a -2 penalty on a critter's defenses (so +2 to the whole party), and it targets Reflex.

Yep. Mind you there are cleric attack powers that do something similar to what he's talking about.

At Will Attack Powers
Lance of faith (+2 to one ally you can see) targets Reflex

Righteous Brand (one ally within 5 squars of you gain a power bonus to melee attack rolls against the target equal to your Str mod until the end of your next turn.)

Gaze of Defiance (your allies gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls against the target until the end of your next turn. If the target attacks you before the end of your next turn, the bonus increases to +3.)

Encounter Attack Powers
Divine Glow (Effect: Allies in the blast gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn)

Although, for those pesky monsters who won't die soon enough, there's a daily utility that's not bad. (And it's only 2nd level)

Bless (Until the end of the encounter, all targets gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls.)


So the most important questions I think are thus: can a PC count on getting situational and power bonuses to attacks during the encounter? And if so, does that mitigate the need to take a feat like Expertise as a gap filler? Because if combat advantage is a +2 and the PC can expect an additional +1 from something else, that's +3 and Expertise grants a +3 at the Epic tier.

I don't know that answer to those questions.

 

[Dausuul]

So the most important questions I think are thus: can a PC count on getting situational and power bonuses to attacks during the encounter? And if so, does that mitigate the need to take a feat like Expertise as a gap filler? Because if combat advantage is a +2 and the PC can expect an additional +1 from something else, that's +3 and Expertise grants a +3 at the Epic tier.

Except that the PC can expect to get those same bonuses in Heroic tier. It cancels out; attack bonus at Epic has still fallen behind attack bonus at Heroic (relative to monster defenses).