Is the Psion class balanced?

[KarinsDad]

With pleasure. Here's the ones that occur to me right off the bat. I'm sure other folks can come up with nothing.

FLAT-OUT BROKEN ARCANE SPELLS
Gate- Two Words: Solar Cascade. Game. Set. Match. Psions do not gain the ability to ever summon anything, which bars them from more powerful summons and the game-ending brokenness that is Gate.
Disjunction- The verbal component for this spell should be "buh-bye". It just kills magic items. No equivalent in psionics.
Polymorph any Object- Turn your fighter into a firbolg permanently! Turn a mouse skeleton into a dragon skeleton, then raise it to be your new undead buddy! Do whatever the hell you want! We don't care anymore!
True Stirke- +20 insight bonus to an attack. Busts the hell out of power attack and is busted as hell when used in a magic item.

Agreed on 3 out of 4.

I disagree on Polymorph Any Object because your PC Fighter turns into a Firbolg. That means he no longer thinks like your Fighter, he thinks like a Firbog and should immediately become an NPC. Since he is no longer the Fighter, he has no memories of his previous life. He is a totally different creature. Everything changes. He does not get to pick and choose which elements of his previous life he wants to keep. The only thing he gets to keep is his Wisdom and Charisma scores. Not his alignment. Not his Intelligence. Nothing. It is no longer just physical traits like Polymorph.

Polymorph is a willing creature. Polymorph Any Object is unwilling. Polymorph Any Object is pretty similar to save or die spells. Course, a given DM might rule that he keeps his knowledge, even though his Intelligence changes. I wouldn't. Problem solved.


However, let's compare True Strike to Greater Power Penetration.

1) True Strike uses up a spell. So, there are a limited number of True Strikes you can do per day. However, since True Strike is often used to augment touch spells or ray spells, you often have to cast two spells to get one effect here.

Greater Power Penetration augments a power. So, there are a limited number of Greater Power Penetrations you can do per day. One power for one effect.

Advantage: GPP

2) True Strike forces you to use a Standard Action in order to get an auto-hit (95% in most cases) the following round.

Greater Power Penetration forces you to use up your focus in order to get +8 in the current round. What does that really mean? Well, let's take an example. A 10th level character has Spell Resistance of 0. An 8th level Drow is considered to be the same CR as a 10th level character and the Drow has a Spell Resistance of 19. A 10th level Psion would normally need to roll a 9 to get past the Spell Resistance, but she can roll a 1 and get past it with GPP. That means she has a 100% chance of affecting an even CR Drow.

Advantage: GPP

3) True Strike uses up an extra standard action to gain it's advantage.

Greater Power Penetration uses up one or more extra full round action (possibly out of combat) in order to gain back the focus. This also tends to be an extra move action at later levels for many psions.

Advantage: True Strike

4) True Strike is not very cost effective for most Wizards/Sorcerers for melee or missile attacks due to the low damage most of their melee and missile attacks have. It is most effective for melee and ranged touch spells and rays. Out of core rules, it affects 7% of Wizard/Sorcerer spells (26 out of 375).

Greater Power Penetration affects 40% of psionic powers in the XPH (111 out of 277).

Note: I did not include beneficial touch spells like Bull's Strength since it would almost never be used with True Strike, but I did include spells that could be beneficial or harmful like Plane Shift. If you add Beneficial spells, it's about 60 more spells or close to 23%.

Advantage: GPP

5) True Strike requires two rounds to use unless it is Quickened.

Greater Power Penetration requires one round to use right away.

Advantage: GPP

6) True Strike does not limit any metamagic you want to put on a spell you are using with it.

Greater Power Penetration limits the metapsionics you want to put on a power you are using with it.

Advantage: True Strike

7) True Strike requires learning a spell.

Greater Power Penetration requires learning two feats.

Advantage: True Strike

8) True Strike is easy to counter (if not Quickened). The fact that it was cast can be detected with a Spellcraft roll and multiple opponents might be able to react to that in a large number of ways. If they hamper the spellcaster, he might not be able to use it next round and lose it.

Greater Power Penetration is hard to counter. The power it is augmenting can be countered, but then so can the spell (or attack) True Strike was augmenting.

Advantage: GPP

9) True strike can be done at 1st level.

Greater Power Penetration can be done at 1st level.

Advantage: Equal


Now, I tried to be totally impartial here. If I forgot anything important, it was not intentional.


Doesn't Greater Power Penetration sound surprising similar in power to True Strike (i.e. broken). Sure, you could have a higher Spell Resistant opponent, just like you could have a higher AC opponent.

And you consider True Strike to be broken, but not Greater Power Penetration? Huh?

 

[Scion]

I disagree on Polymorph Any Object because your PC Fighter turns into a Firbolg. That means he no longer thinks like your Fighter, he thinks like a Firbog and should immediately become an NPC. Since he is no longer the Fighter, he has no memories of his previous life. He is a totally different creature. Everything changes. He does not get to pick and choose which elements of his previous life he wants to keep. The only thing he gets to keep is his Wisdom and Charisma scores. Not his alignment. Not his Intelligence. Nothing. It is no longer just physical traits like Polymorph.

Karinsdad,

Recently in these threads you have a few posts where you have made comments about the rules that are blatantly wrong by the RAW. I am not sure what to say about this other than if this is an indicator of your general rules knowledge then I do not see how you can say anything definative one way or the other about psionics. I mainly say this because someone earlier commented that you usually know the rules very well. It is possible that you have become overly frustrated with this topic and so are making mistakes, it might be time for a breather.

Polymorph any object says nothing about you losing your memories or becoming mentally like another creature. While you do gain its intelligence score this has nothing to do with memories themselves. Abilities which adjust memories say so specifically.

So yes indeed one could cast the spell on the party fighter to make them into something very dangerous, and likely for a very long duration at that.

Just because this spell can be used offensively is meaningless. The spell only does what it says.

Here is the spell for reference:

Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.
Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
1 Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.

Duration Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew
Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.
Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.
A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
Arcane Material Component: Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke.

Hopefully this will help show you what I mean.


Maybe Jackelope King will be willing to go over your comments of true strike and greater power specialization..

 

[Jackelope King]

Agreed on 3 out of 4.

I disagree on Polymorph Any Object because your PC Fighter turns into a Firbolg. That means he no longer thinks like your Fighter, he thinks like a Firbog and should immediately become an NPC. Since he is no longer the Fighter, he has no memories of his previous life. He is a totally different creature. Everything changes. He does not get to pick and choose which elements of his previous life he wants to keep. The only thing he gets to keep is his Wisdom and Charisma scores. Not his alignment. Not his Intelligence. Nothing. It is no longer just physical traits like Polymorph.

Polymorph is a willing creature. Polymorph Any Object is unwilling. Polymorph Any Object is pretty similar to save or die spells. Course, a given DM might rule that he keeps his knowledge, even though his Intelligence changes. I wouldn't. Problem solved.

Intelligence changes, yes. However, personality, alignment, all of that stay the same. There is nothing in the rules as written which support this interpretation. However, I'll tell you right now I do the exact same thing as a houserule in my games. Great minds think alike

However, let's compare True Strike to Greater Power Specialization.

<snip>

And you consider True Strike to be broken, but not Greater Power Specialization? Huh?

Huh? You're comparing a feat that grants you +2 damage (usually a piddly increase relative to the rest of the power) to a spell that grants you +20 to an attack. Come on... apples to oranges and then some.

 

[KarinsDad]

Huh? You're comparing a feat that grants you +2 damage (usually a piddly increase relative to the rest of the power) to a spell that grants you +20 to an attack. Come on... apples to oranges and then some.

It does not grant +2 damage. It grants +8 versus Power Resistance (which in a spells = psionics game is the same as Spell Resistance).

In other words, it can be used with 40% of Psionic Powers to pretty much ensure that you get past Spell Resistance nearly every time.

 

[Jackelope King]

It does not grant +2 damage. It grants +8 versus Power Resistance (which in a spells = psionics game is the same as Spell Resistance).

In other words, it can be used with 40% of Psionic Powers to pretty much ensure that you get past Spell Resistance nearly every time.

No, it doesn't. I think you're confusing power penetration and power specialization.

GREATER POWER SPECIALIZATION [PSIONIC]
You deal more damage with your powers.
Prerequisites: Power Specialization, Weapon Focus (ray), manifester level 12th.
Benefit: Your powers that deal damage deal an extra 2 points of damage. This damage stacks with other bonuses on damage rolls to powers, including the one from Power Specialization. The damage bonus applies only if the target or targets are within 30 feet.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hopefully this will help show you what I mean.

Actually, I forgot that Alter Self does not change Alignment, hence, Polymorph Any Object does not as well.

I stand corrected.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it doesn't. I think you're confusing power penetration and power specialization.

I am. Course, you could tell that from my post.

Fixed now.

I do that every once in a while. I think one thing and type another and then continue typing it for an entire post.

 

[Scion]

The reason I think alignment changes is because creatures have racial alignments. Since the spell does not talk about alignment, like all other attributes of the creature, that is what you get. Ditto for all other attributes. The only attributes that stay the same are Wisdom and Charisma (and then, not always those).

By similar logic polymorph would change the alignment of the creature changed.

But then, by similar logic since there is no rule against my commoner shooting 20d6 fireballs out of his butt he must be able to do that as well.

It does not grant +2 damage. It grants +8 versus Power Resistance (which in a spells = psionics game is the same as Spell Resistance).

note that you said the wrong word above, you might want to edit it.


Edit: Ahh, you had thought that alter self said something about alignment? Well that would make more sense then. Although I am unsure where that thought would come from. Odd.

 

[Jackelope King]

Alright, now that I know what you're talking about...

Power Penetration/Greater Power Penetration are good when you're trying to punch through a creature with power resistance/spell resistance. If you only need to make one shot, then it's golden. If you need to do it multiple times, you absolutely must have spent at least two more feats (either psicrystal affinity/psicrystal containment or expanded knowledge (hustle)/psychic meditation) to effectively get psionic focus to utilize these feats again. Otherwise you lose a full round afterwards to regain focus so you can do it again.

Compare this to the traditional magic version. They're always on. It costs you no action to ready them. When you need them, they're there. This means that you're less likely to "waste" a spell because you didn't think to juice up and it fizzled against some big fella's spell resistance.

And this is EXTREMELY painful for psionic characters. As other folks have pointed out, psionic characters tend to blow away a LOT of resources to pull off some of their more spectacular effects. Situations like running blind into spell resistance mean that the psion may have just thrown away upwards of 12-17% power points for the day (more if you're using a true nova strategy) to do nothing. So what happens when you augmented and overchanneled an energy missile form here to kingdom come only to run smack into a creature's spell resistance and lose it all for nothing? Had the psionic version of these feats function like the traditional version, no worries! You get your +4 to punch through right there. The psions, on the other hand, have to know in advance that they'll have spell resistance to punch through to take advantage of it, and in most cases this means they'll have to waste some resources to find this out. Pumping out a three-round temporal acceleration and three delayed augmented energy stuns only to see all three of them sputter against someone's spell resistance hurts, both your pp reserve and your pride (I think when that happened I actually whimpered )

All of the plusses they're getitng are very nice. I'll agree with that. But all of those plusses have pretty hefty price tags attached to them which you don't see unless you've actually done it.

True strike is equally good in a similar situation: when you're trying to connect with a touch attack of some sort, most of which usually preclude saves. HOWEVER, these spells are usually the ones that will ignore spell resistance anyway. It does take longer, consuming more actions, but then you don't think that's an important point .

Also consider that true strike in the hands of any self-respecting gish is absolutely mind-numbingly busted. A power attacking fighter/wizard/eldritch knight, a fighter/sorcerer/dragon disciple, or even just a fighter who dipped a level of wizard suddenly gains the ability to trade 1 spell for a +1 to attack rolls and a +38 to damage rolls.

plus.

thirty.

eight.

And at high levels, drop 35,000 gold for a lesser metamagic rod of quicken. Now you've got this three times per day as a free action.

To echo earlier complaints, true strike doesn't have any somatic components. I seem to recall folks who ragged on psionics claiming that this was an extremely busted part of psionics, but it's okay for an arcane spell of this power to have the ability? A spell tailor-made for gishes convieniently ignoring arcane spell failure. Huh.

 

[KarinsDad]

Until they cast dimension door and cast whatever they want. Or they use a stilled spell.

Assuming the spellcasters have those or have them available.

Psions automatically get the equivalent of Stilled Spell and (most of) Silent Spell and Eschew Materials for FREE for every power they manifest for ZERO extra cost.

Advantage: Psion

First I'd like to point out that you're handwaving away a psion drawback by saying that they can fix it with feats while completely ignoring the fact that arcane casters can do the same with still spell.

That said, actions are the fundamental resource unit in the game. If I do not have sufficient actions to put out a plan, then nothing else matters. You seem to think that when a psionic character expends psionic focus, then this is a minor cost. It isn't. It costs actions to regain that focus which could be better used closing with / fleeing from the enemy, or blowing enemies up, or maintaining other feats. If you don't have the actions available to you, the you can't do anything, and psonic focus consumes those actions. If you are unwilling to admit this, I'm not sure that this could really go anywhere. It'd be like claiming that you can ignore yellow lights while driving since they don't stay yellow for very long.

Ok, here is where you haven't gotten the correlation and the point that Scion never mentions. A Psionic focus is not a drawback. It's an advantage.

Spell casters can cast spell. Psions can manifest powers.

So far, even.

Psions have a focus that they can use for a lot of things. Spellcasters do not.

You consider that focus a limitation because it can only be used once before it has to be reacquired.

I consider it a MAJOR advantage because you can use it to do things that no spell caster can do without a spell.

You can up weapon damage with it, you can increase manifester level with it, you can seriously penetrate power resistance (equivalent to getting two arcane feats for one psionic feat), you can walk up a wall past an opponent and get behind him, you can move faster with it, etc., etc., etc., etc.

All these things you can do combat after combat after combat (or even out of combat) and the only limitation to most of them is that you are limited to once per combat shy of using up actions to get it back.

Look at the feats that are only 3 times per day (e.g. Sudden Empower). Psions can use their special overpowered feats (like Overchannel which no spell caster can do) dozens or more times per day. Not 3. They can use feats like Speed of Thought thousands of times per day. Spellcasters cannot take a feat to up their speed by 10 (shy of going into the broken XPH book and taking Wild Talent or a psionic race before they take Speed of Thought).


Considering Psionic Focus to be a limitation is like considering Turning Undead to be a limitation because you can only do it so many times per day.

And that is the flaw in the focus is a limitation point of view. It totally ignores all of the wonderful things that a Psion can choose to do with a focus and totally concentrates that he is basically limited to once per combat for those wonderful things.

Course, the psion has to know what the target's attributes are.

No, he does not have to know. He can guess. He has a CHOICE.

The spell caster does not.

Advantage: Psion

Course, arcanists can do this too with a feat.

Only the energy type portion and then only one energy type PER feat. Not the extra damage. Not the change which saving throw is used.

Major Advantage: Psion

He can do more without a feat than the arcane caster can do with multiple feats.