Is the RPG Industry on Life Support? (Merged w/"Nothing Dies")

[3catcircus]

Rules Complexity is Killing the Game

I'll preface by stating that my own biases are that I've played D&D/AD&D since the early '80s including the boxed BECMI sets and 1st/2nd edition AD&D. Additionally, I am concentrating on 3.x and WOTC because the other RPGs I play are either out of print (Twilight:2000, TORG, Lords of Creation, ) or were/are produced and edited adequately to begin with (Harn, Call of Cthulhu.)

I think that the unified mechanic of 3.x was, in theory, a step in the right direction for D&D. That having been said, the fact of the matter is that rules complexity (actually, it isn't even "complexity" alone, but the plethora of rules additions) is killing D&D for me. I know it is for everyone else I game with too. The biggest problem is the feats and prestige classes.

While people may aregue that it is only 3rd parties that took the ideas of feats and prestige classes and created a mess with a morass of poor-quality supplements, WOTC has not done its part as steward of D&D to reign in this tendency to make things "Bigger! Stronger! Faster!" EVERY supplement or book that WOTC has produced for the game has included too many new prestige classes and feats, too many impossible-to-use-with-no-historical-basis-but-looks-cool weapons and armor, too many 1000-variations-on-just-50-monsters-and-calling-it-a-book-with-over-300-monsters.

As far as I am concerned, other than the core books, new crunch has been introduced with too little thought and too little playtest. In many cases these feats and prestige classes are done *only* to counter the ones introduced in the last supplement that was published (and thus stimulate sales of product.) In many cases these contradict each other, overlap each other, and contradict the core rules. Do we really *need* to have a published feat to be able to do something that in previous incarnations of the game was the province of DM judgement? Do we really need a prestige class to define what was once the province of player imagination? I'd prefer that WOTC stop rushing half-complete, poorly-edited books out the door. Concentrate on two things: doing the research to ensure the product doesn't contradict prior work (in both the crunch and fluff areas), and making damn sure that the product is as well-edited as possible. Frankly, most of WOTC's offerings of late were released in such a poor state that the editors should have hidden their heads in shame. The other side of this is that a lot of the newest offering (Complete xxx) aren't "new." They are simply repackaging of the splat books - sure - in some cases a name has changed or a prestige class progression was tweaked, but the material isn't new - which is even more of a reason that the products should have been in a better state of editing prior to release.

While I've harped on feats and prestige classes, 3.x, in general, is nothing but a headache for DMs. Previously, we didn't have to worry about creating full statistics for each and every orc the party encountered. If we wanted a BBEG orc, we simply gave him an additional attack or more hit points. Now, we need to know his SSN and his mother's maiden name in order to stat him out.

Looking at an old "classic" AD&D module (A-1) the two main baddies of the temple were a 5th level Thief and a 6th level Cleric.

The Thief was described as such:

(Name) (level and class): AC, hp, # of attacks, Damage (by weapon type), backstab for triple damage, Equipment: (armor, sword, sling, magic ring, magic potion).

The cleric was described similarly, with the exception of the addition of her spells (a grand total of 10 spells listed just by name).

When I converted one of these to 3.5 (I'll use the thief), here is how much space the stat block takes up:

"(Name),Medium-size Male Human Rogue5
Hit Dice: (5d6)+5 Hit Points: 26
Initiative: +7
Speed: Walk 30'
AC: 17
Attacks: Sling +6; *Sword, Short +6; Damage: Sling 1d4+1; *Sword, Short 1d6+1;
Face/Reach: /5
Special Qualities: Evasion (Ex), Sneak Attack +3d6, Trap Sense (Ex) +1, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
Saves: Fortitude: +2, Reflex: +9, Will: +2
Abilities: Str 13 (+1), Dex 17 (+3), Con 13 (+1), Int 13 (+1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1)
Skills: Appraise 5; Balance 7; Bluff 5; Climb 5; Concentration 1; Craft (Untrained) 1; Decipher Script 5; Diplomacy 5; Disable Device 3; Disguise 3; Escape Artist 5; Forgery 3; Gather Information 5; Heal 1; Hide 7; Intimidate 5; Jump 5; Listen 5; Move Silently 7; Open Lock 5; Ride -2; Search 5; Sense Motive 5; Sleight of Hand 7; Spot 5; Survival 1; Swim 1; Use Magic Device 3;
Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Finesse
Challenge Rating: 5
Alignment: Neutral Evil

Possessions: Leather; Outfit (Explorer's); Potion of Invisibility; Ring of Protection +2; Sling;"

Now - just imagine doing this amount of work for *every* single NPC that isn't straight out of one of the monster manuals? Imagine doing this *from scratch* (i.e. generating it rather than converting from an existing set of stats from a previous edition of the game.)

AD&D beats 3.5 in this *because* of the use of the THAC0 tables (and all of the other tables) - all of which were fairly logically laid out on the DM screen. I didn't have to waste my time assigning skill ranks to a rogue's skills because the little table told me what they were. I didn't have to waste time deciding what feats to give him because, as DM, I could simply determine if the situation logically would allow for him to do the same things feats allow him to do in 3.x.

I ran my group (consisting of 5 PCs, 2 NPCs and 2 cohorts) through portions of A1-4 last night, using the 3.5 rules. When the party fought the rogue with his 5 weasels and 8 orcs, it took about an hour and a half to go through 7 rounds of combat. When I ran this same combat in it's existing form (AD&D) against a party of 8 PCs it took about 10 minutes.

Enough with the publishing of unoriginal material that hasn't been given enough time and respect to be properly edited!

What I believe WOTC needs is to STOP releasing books until they can get their development and editing acts together.

 

[Crothian]

Books, like it or not, are passe. The future is staring you in the face even as you read these words...

Not yet they aren't. Have you seen the sales of the best PDF books? PDF industry has done some great things in the past year, but it still seems many years away at least that it will surpass books.

 

[warlord]

I'll tell you whats killing the industry those stupid videogame RPGs! Why bother to think when you can just sit down and play Final Fantasy or Everquest. Its videogames most kids these days don't want to have there entertainment make them think. Also RPGing is nerdy now so most kids my age don't know what a rpg or D&D is.

 

[Maggan]

My two öre

Hi!

I'm not privy to industry info of any other kind than what I glean from different web sites, and through my own free lancing, but my own take on your points are as follows (it is late here in Sweden, and some of my points might not make all that much sense, but I'll take a stab at it anyway). I realise that I just about equates the industry to WotC and D&D, but that's pretty much how it goes.

1) Rules Complexity

The industry has several rules light systems that could attract new players. As for WotC they have D&D Miniatures as well as D&D Basic Set, and I think they will serve as spring boards for new players, especially as they always (?) contains ads for the PH, pointing tha players in the right direction: the core rules. See also point 3.

2) Fragmentation

Yes, we have a lot of systems to chose from, but that's always been the case. The big systems (d20, GURPS and Storyteller) have become entrenched, and this means we see less fragmentation among the large supersets of rules. Basically the big releases are one of these three variants that people are familiar with, with no no additions. At the same time, we see variations among the subsets (mostly regarding d20-systems), which could mean fragmentation which is bad, or it could mean that more roleplayers are being served with product that they like, so they continue to play instead of opting out ("Don't want D&D? Well, play Conan, or Arcana Unearthed, or Midnight, or something else. You're bound to find something that rocks your boat!"). I think that's good.

3) New Blood

When I started roleplaying at 12 I loved rules. I adored them, and went from rules light systems (eg BRP) to rules heavy systems (eg Rolemaster), loving every minute. The young gamers I meet todat are not unlike me, they want rules, lots of rules. They want options, they want a lot of cool stuff. Maybe they are more impatient than we were in the old days, what with CRPGs and such avaliable. But as far as my anecdotal observation goes, it's often older gamers that want rule light systems. Young gamers plow through thick tomes and complex systems with ease. As many of us did with AD&D 1st edition, with its many options and books. So I dont think less options automatically equals more young people adopting the game, you need something else. Such as the Basic Set, and the D&D Miniatures game, eg. Hopefully, these strategies are beginning to hook young gamers to D&D, leading them from these beginnings to the core rules.

4) Lack of Leadership

Actually, there are many talented game designers at WotC who are among the most knowledgable about the industry in the whole world. It's not as if Monte Cook, Chris Pramas, Sean Reynolds et al, were the only people at WotC who knew how to make games. Also, it is not the marketers who design the games. They might influence the big picture, but the games are made by game designers. Some very talented game designers. Yes the people who were let go were also very talented, but come on, that was like years ago. Literally years ago. Also, what is WotC putting out now? Thinks like Draconomicon, Eberron and Libris Mortis, which are really, really good books (with flaws) by my standards. And the Forgotten Realms books also impress me. Also, the DMG 3.5 is my favourite version of the DMG ever. Sure some things feel more like pipeline products, but then again, WotC must cater to those that want options, which I believe is the majority of their customers.

5) Lack of Inspiration

I find plenty of inspiration among the products that come out now. Now is a good time to be a gamer, what with the PDF thing beginning to take off. In my opinion small press games are better than ever. Sure there are bombs, but that's always the case, we got some really uninspiring games and supplements in the 80's as well. Also I think that there are plenty of fluffy games out there. D&D has mostly been focused on crunch, where the players supply their own fluff, ie they tell their own stories using the crunchy tools given in the rules, and I think that one reason why D&D is so popular. Of the big 3, Storyteller has the most fluff, and GURPS the least (caveat: I'm not that familiar with GURPS, so that might just be my impression). And I think that games that have lots of rules are more likely to attract and retain gamers than games that have lots of story. People want to play games, and they want to tell their own stories.

6) Lack of Stewardship

Well, there is no entry exam or listed requirements that anyone has to be a good representative for them to take up our hobby. Or any hobby as far as I know. People will be people, and if anyone is not happy with the other people in the hobby, it's an exercise in futility trying to change these people. Look to yourself and what you can do, not how others can change to accomodate your views on how the should look and behave. At least, that's how I see it.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[Banshee16]

A friend who just got back from GenCon Socal was relating to me one of the seminars he sat through on the State of the RPG Industry. Besides relating that the news was on the depressing side, he confirmed something that I have suspected for the last year or so… that the industry is losing players. Personally, I think there is some real leadership needed otherwise the table top hobby as we know it is going to atrophy significantly over the next 5-10 years. While I don’t expect everyone to agree with the points I’m about to make, I want to at least get I dialogue going. Often we are so focused on the details of our hobby, that we fail to look at the big picture.

The following my thoughts about the failings of the industry as a whole:

1) Rules Complexity: While there has been enormous creativity in a lot of the rules and options, it is particularly daunting for new players coming into the game. Experienced players may be able to browse through loads of prestige classes, feats, etc., but for a new player this represents potentially thousands of pages of material they may have to understand and synthesize. Moreover, the complexity of 3.5 is greater than past editions. Admittedly, I like 3.5 the best, but I’ve witnessed more DM burnout with 3.5 than with any addition in the past. A good deal of this can be attributed to the added complexity of 3.5 and its proliferation of options. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be for a new DM, just trying to figure out the basics of what books should I buy when there are some many rules variants out there or how to balance all the feats and prestige classes to preserve a game in the long run.

2) Fragmentation: Around the time that TSR was near its end, one of the major problems the sheer number of different game worlds really split its customer base and made it harder to put a group together. It also reduced the utility of game books. If you bought a book for Ravenloft it was very difficult to integrate it with Hollow World perhaps. While some of the initial books from 3rd edition were easy to integrate, over time there has been a sharper increase in industry fragmentation. Not only do you have people fragmented by OD&D, 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 3.5 Ed. But now you have people fragmented by d20 Future, d20 Modern, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, Iron Kingdoms, Home Brew, and just a slew more. I’d say this is analogous to having too many programming languages in the computer industry. All the variety is great but learning each new iteration is an investment of time. With people split over some many iterations, I think it has really hurt the industry.

3) New Blood: I remember seeing a poll here some time ago about when people on this board had started roleplaying and was struck to see it was about 10-14 years of age. As I look back the people that stuck with the hobby over the years often started at that age. The game is a lot more likely to capture your imagination in these preteen years and as your transition past this age your probability of trying and/or sticking with the game diminishes. I’d say this is a very unique example of customer lifetime value. The industry acquires its customer 10-14 year age range and for the next 30+ years it harvests value from that customer. The games currently are not very good at acquiring customers in that critical age range because with the proliferation of options and material it is just to darn complex for the average 10-14 year to understand or DM. We need a more simplified version to bring in new players and DMs at this age range. It is more than must just a boxed set, but a significant amount of support material that captures their imagination of the average preteen and good marketing campaign that really appeals to them (not us old groknards).

4) Lack of Leadership: This is just my impression but I think Wizards of the Coast made a huge mistake it letting some very talented people who knew the industry go. When it was acquired by Hasbro it got rid of the game developers who really understood the fundamentals of the industry and replaced them with marketers that didn’t. With what the company is putting out now, I think Wizards of the Coast is really struggling to find its place in the industry. It has opted for a heavy rules and options orientation but is often beaten to the punch by third party publishers. Furthermore, (with the exception of Eberron) its recent work ranks among the most uninspiring and lacks forethought as to the future of the hobby.

5) Lack of Inspiration: First, a disclaimer… there are some very notable exceptions to this such as Dungeon Magazine, Iron Kingdoms, Eberron, etc., however, the bulk of stuff put out by the roleplaying industry lacks inspiration. There are just too many books on prestige classes, feats, etc. with no context other to give players and unfair advantage over game balance. If the gaming industry were a farmer its activities would be broken into two parts. There are certain activities that grow the grain and other activities that harvest the grain. Growing the grain helps to build the player base of the industry as a whole, however, harvesting the grain is what makes money. What increases the player base of the industry are memorable roleplaying experiences and what helps to create these are modules, works with more fluff than crunch, good DMing, etc. Unfortunately, the products which support these activities are not in themselves profitable for individual companies but benefit the industry as a whole. Other activities such as crunch books are what harvest the grain and what actually make money for companies. I’d argue that the majority of gaming companies these days are far too caught up in harvesting the grain and not enough are growing the grain. And who is to blame them because they are in business to make money, but the industry as a whole needs to somehow think about how to support both activities.

6) Lack of Stewardship – I’m sorry to say this but the majority of roleplayers are just not very good representatives of our hobby. We have to take a step back and think how we come across to the general populace. What mom is going to want her kid playing roleplaying games when a large proportion of the roleplaying populace is in bad shape, bad health, lack manners, are not friendly, wear dour expressions half the time, etc. I know I’m overgeneralizing a bit here but there is a lot we can do to be better representatives for our hobby.

Anyway, I apologize in advance if I have offended anybody. The intent is that I want to see roleplaying games continue to thrive for years to come and not go the way of something like bridge where it’s mainly played in old folks homes. I encourage you to disagree with me, but if you do my challenge to you is to identify what are the industry’s problems and what can we do about them for the future.

I've got a new player that joined my group who only started playing at 25. The rest of us have been playing longer. I don't think the industry is on life support....but I do think that the bubble has burst. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It happened in tech, and tech has rebounded....companies are appearing again, people are hiring, etc. etc. I think that some dominant players have emerged, such as Mongoose, Privateer Press, Bastion Press, Green Ronin, and Mahavloc Press.....and then lots of other companies that aren't doing nearly as well. Those making good product will sell it.

I've had to trim down my buying....but not because of a lack of desire to purchase products....simply because I can't support every company out there, and not everything appeals. I largely buy more products from non-WotC companies than I do from WotC. This is mainly because I find the originality far higher.

I don't necessarily think that fragmentation of a sort is a bad thing. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I don't want every rule/prestige class/feat to be 100% integratable into every other setting. If the publishers do that, then the settings lack flavour and originality. Both Dark Sun and Planescape had a lot of variant rules in 2nd Ed....and they were amazing settings. Both variants in 3rd Ed. just are not the same without those variant rules. Midnight and Iron Kingdoms have rules rules that are largely adapted to their specific environments....and I think that this has made those settings stronger...not weaker. The rules support the setting, instead of just trying to shoehorn everything and the kitchen sink into the game.

I think this is just a correction in the industry that was inevitable. There are only so many customers, and they can only buy so much product.

I will say that many of my local shops have organized play type events where they get a bunch of youngsters, in the 11-14 age group around, and teach them how to play. And many times that I go to my local store, I see fathers, and even mothers, who are likely gamers, coming in, and showing their kids around, and getting them into the hobby.

One thing I will note....WotC used to have this player registry on their website, where people registered themselves in cities around North America. It was very easy to find players that way. That is no longer being supported, so when I've talked with some players, they comment about how difficult it is to find other groups, like when moving to a new city, etc.

Of course this is all my opinion....

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Not yet they aren't. Have you seen the sales of the best PDF books? PDF industry has done some great things in the past year, but it still seems many years away at least that it will surpass books.

Books aren't passé. I hate reading from PDFs. I'd rather pull out my teeth. Give me a well-bound book any day of the week, rather than a PDF. It means you're stuck carrying around either disks, or a laptop, finding somewhere to put it, working with those horrible keyboards built into laptops, and staring at a thin screen that makes your eyes sore.

Then, if you want to print it out, you can spend $20 filling up an ink cartridge to print out one PDF, or hope that your boss doesn't mind you using the company laser printer for gaming purposes....or don't tell him you're doing it, and hope nobody notices you..

The only people I see in my group using PDFs are those people who are downloading copied books off the internet....definitely not ones that they purchase. I always try to push my players to purchase their own copies of books, but..

Banshee

 

[Umbran]

Before we really consider the question, we must first consider if the observations we have are valid.

The last Time I've ever heard of anyone doing anything approaching solid research on the hobby was WotC back in 1999. As far as I'm aware, nobody's tried to collect comprehensive data, or even done solid large surveys since that time. So, all we have to go on is anecdotal evidence. And we all know how weak that is, right?

Before you can arrive at anything even remotely resembling a sane policy that addresses a problem, you have to know that the problem really exists, and how things have been changing over time. Otherwise, if you come up with a course of action, you will as likely hurt your cause as help it.

 

[Glyfair]

One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be fewer and fewer places to "drop in" on a roleplaying game. Admittedly, there weren't too many when I started playing in the late 70's. However, in the 80's, there were different campaigns and different games being run at local gaming stores almost every night of the week. A majority of those games were open to new players.

Today, I see more and more wargames and less and less roleplaying games. Of those games, most are D&D and very few are other roleplaying games. Of the campaigns, only a small few are open to new players.

Most roleplaying games are run in people's homes. That's not something that's easy for a new player to find. Either you know these people or you don't. Even those that put up ads as looking for a new player are usually very picky about who they choose to allow in their game. A new player would have to be spectacular for them to choose someone who has little idea of the game.

 

[Sholari]

The last Time I've ever heard of anyone doing anything approaching solid research on the hobby was WotC back in 1999. As far as I'm aware, nobody's tried to collect comprehensive data, or even done solid large surveys since that time. So, all we have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

I'm all for gathering data around this subject. That would be great. However, how long do you propose to wait for this data to arrive? Would this data necessarilly be openly shared with the gaming community? Until that day arrives or someone has the 60k to conduct the market research, anecdotal evidence is about all that most people have.

 

[MerricB]

I'm all for gathering data around this subject. That would be great. However, how long do you propose to wait for this data to arrive? Would this data necessarilly be openly shared with the gaming community? Until that day arrives or someone has the 60k to conduct the market research, anecdotal evidence is about all that most people have.

In that case, the RPG market is doing just fine. I've introduced many new people to D&D, and I'm seeing quite a few entering the game because of the new Basic game and the D&D Miniatures game.

Cheers!