Is the Slayer PrC overpowered?

[moritheil]

It's pretty clear that this gets into the assumptions surrounding play - for example, a solo character might derive more benefit from such class features than a member of a large group.

Pawsplay, in my analysis, the immunity largely just substitutes for the Slayer manifesting psionic mind blank, saving him/her some pp and possibly a known power - it's a bit better, but I don't know that it's vastly better for most settings. I'm sure that setting details could change things.

 

[IcyCool]

Well, it isn't full caster they lose a level of it and that is not unsignificant. Casters also need to be able to take advantage of a full BAB. They can go with that focus but that changes things for them. Also with the 4 BAB requirement the character either has already sacrificed BAB to get all psion levels or they sacrifice psion levels to qualify better faster BAB. And I don't see any of the other psionic bases classes being as powerful as a psion with the 9 levels of manifesting levels.

Out of curiousity, what does a Psion 10/Slayer 10 lose and gain in comparison to a Psion 20?

I know it gains the following:

1. 10D8 + 10D4 Hit dice compared to the 20D4 of the Psion (that's pretty significant).
2. Full BAB compared to Poor BAB (also a big boost).
3. Constant, Personal Mind Blank (effectively).
4. 4 + Int mod vs 2 + Int (it is 2 + Int for Psions, right?).

And it loses what?

1. 1 Manifester level.
2. Psion bonus feats (How many?)
3. Power Points?
4. Known Powers?

Did I miss anything?

 

[pawsplay]

It's pretty clear that this gets into the assumptions surrounding play - for example, a solo character might derive more benefit from such class features than a member of a large group.

Pawsplay, in my analysis, the immunity largely just substitutes for the Slayer manifesting psionic mind blank, saving him/her some pp and possibly a known power - it's a bit better, but I don't know that it's vastly better for most settings. I'm sure that setting details could change things.

We're talking about the constant benefit of an 8th level power/spell, that cannot be dispeled. I'm not sure what setting changes we're talking about, but scrying is a 4th level spell. If two foes of any level are facing off against each other, they will be attempting to scry, spy, and detect each other every change they get. Just as an example, in a campaign I've been running, the PCs were returning a crystal ball to an NPC, but were suspicious of a double cross; the PCs used the crystal ball every chance they got to spy on him and his minions. Meanwhile, an employer was scrying on them, a friendly wizard was scrying on them, and they were scrying on each other (fruitlessly, as it happens).

What, exactly, is it about slayer training that would make them as proof against mind-affecting abilities as a stone?

 

[Crothian]

Did I miss anything?

2 feats, but really 3 since you have to waste a feat on track.

32 power points, and 2 powers

Possible powers with the psi crystal, I don't know how they interact with multi classing.

So, there are trade offs. Some characters will be better off with Slayer option some won't. But Overpowered to me is not just compaired to the Psion directly, but all character options.

 

[moritheil]

We're talking about the constant benefit of an 8th level power/spell, that cannot be dispeled. I'm not sure what setting changes we're talking about, but scrying is a 4th level spell. If two foes of any level are facing off against each other, they will be attempting to scry, spy, and detect each other every change they get. Just as an example, in a campaign I've been running, the PCs were returning a crystal ball to an NPC, but were suspicious of a double cross; the PCs used the crystal ball every chance they got to spy on him and his minions. Meanwhile, an employer was scrying on them, a friendly wizard was scrying on them, and they were scrying on each other (fruitlessly, as it happens).

What, exactly, is it about slayer training that would make them as proof against mind-affecting abilities as a stone?

I get that it's powerful, but my point is that it doesn't ultimately give them an immunity they would not eventually have. It certainly lets them have it earlier and saves them pp and a known power slot, but it's not like, say, making a PrC that grants people immunity to energy, paralysis, poison, criticals, and sleep. Come to think of it, lots of classes grant immunities to individual things that would otherwise eat up spell slots to maintain. Druids are immune to poison. Paladins and contemplatives are immune to disease.

My reference to setting is, if nothing else, a nod to Crothian's point that even if one single player in a group is immune to mind-affecting abilities, he is still somewhat vulnerable if his allies - assets he is relying on - are not. Obviously, that is not so much of a concern in a solo adventure.

Out of curiosity, what interpretation do you use for mind blank? If you use the interpretation that it prevents things such as See Invisible from working, then I can certainly understand your assessment of the class as overpowered.

 

[Corsair]

I notice you didn't address the immunity to mind-affecting abilities. I can't think of any other way to practically attain that ability other than becoming an undead.

Occult Slayer 5, Blank Thoughts (Ex). Can be obtained at CL 10. Pretty handy for a fighter/barbarian. Or drop some cash on a Third eye of Conceal (120k, uses the oh-so-in-demand eyewear slot).

 

[pawsplay]

I would compare the Slayer to a Psychic Warrior. A Psychic Warrior, single class, can qualify at 6th level. By going Slayer, he gains

- Fighter BAB
- immunity to mind-affecting and abilities and scrying
- favored enemy like a ranger
- the ability to batter down PR
- immunity to mind flayer's main non mind-affecting ability

He loses

- one manifester level
- three feats
- good Fortitude (he gets good Will, but it doesn't really matter)

What this means is basically you have a Psychic Warrior who gets a fourth attack. Using Offensive Precognition, a 20th level Psychic Warrior get +7 to +15/10/5, while a PsyWar 10/Slayer 10 gets +6 to +17/12/7/2 (higher total bonus to hit with more attacks than self buffer).

Track is hardly wasted.. it's a good feat, and Slayers get Survival as a class skill. It's useful, naturally, for finding other Slayers.

 

[Bacris]

The SRD slayer is overpowered because the prerequisites are far too easy to get. The Illithid Slayer requires actually killing an Illithid in a small group, making entrance into it at lower levels hard, if not impossible. The Illithid Slayer is also flavored so the benefits are mostly only good against actual Illithid. The SRD Slayer does not have this restriction.

3 feats and one ML for +5 BAB, an average extra 20 HP, 20 more skill points, immunity to scrying, and treating a psionic creature type as a favored enemy, plus the proficiencies, is a bit too good when any joe shmoe can enter it.

Ranger 2 / Psion 8 / Slayer 10 is pretty much THE psionic gish build - ML 17, BAB 16, 9th level powers, and 4+INTx4 skill points at 1st level instead of 2... The SRD slayer is just too good.

 

[moritheil]

The SRD slayer is overpowered because the prerequisites are far too easy to get. The Illithid Slayer requires actually killing an Illithid in a small group, making entrance into it at lower levels hard, if not impossible. The Illithid Slayer is also flavored so the benefits are mostly only good against actual Illithid. The SRD Slayer does not have this restriction.

Aha, finally an answer as to what the difference is. Thank you, sir or madam.