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Is the Split a Bad Thing?

That is a big part of it, but there is also a thread running through it that somehow gamers "owe" fidelity to an edition in order to create a bigger pool of players for the common gaming good (whatever that is).

Right. I have seen this first hand as well, though, thankfully not often. There is a fear that exposure to PF or 4e by new gamers is bad because if they prefer the edition that I don't play, then I may have trouble finding a group in the future because everyone will want to play a game I hate.

Its propagates a vicious exclusivity and intolerance that I find abhorrent. We should encourage a love of gaming in general and even though one group may not prefer a game you like, they'll at least be willing and open to try it.

Otherwise, gaming really will dissolve into bitter turf wars where astonishingly people believe its better someone doesn't game at all than play a game they don't like. That will be the true death of gaming.

When I'm at my FLGS and people ask me about 4e vs. Pathfinder, I don't try to sell them on one or the other. I describe how each works without using loaded language or backhanded compliments, then I suggest they choose what they want to play, and recommend the other if they try it and don't like it.

Trying to push people towards games that they may not like will only turn them off of gaming and ultimately be the death of industry that could really use new players.
 

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So for me, the split is bad because 4e simply smeared into a mess of an edition.

I wouldn't say 4e is a mess. There is errata, but I've found that in most cases its just minor stuff. My group freely mixes original 4e with Essentials and have had no issues. We also never look at errata unless a power or item just seems broken. Then we look to see if it has been addressed.

But otherwise we don't really pay attention to the errata and is hasn't affected our game one bit.

The only big errata that I would say is really helpful to incorporate is the improved damage expressions for monsters pre-MM3, and giving players Expertise for free. That's it really.
 

with the OGL old school gamers will always have their preferred version of D&D. 3.x/Pathfinder will live forever regardless of what Paizo does in the future. But us 4e fans are on much shakier ground. This is why what happens with 5e is so important to me.

So 3e gamers can just keep our existing books and keep playing forever, but 4e gamers can't?
 

4e split the game community, but only in the sense that it destroyed the illusion of unity that existed before

(...snip...)


The legitimacy that fans of cinematic 4e style play have now gotten is perceived as a threat to old school gamers who fear that somehow their preferred style is going to fade away. I see it as a subtle undercurrent to every thread contrasting 4e and Pathfinder. Its not enough for Pathfinder to succeed. 4e HAS to FAIL. It has to fail, so that old school play is vindicated as the only true D&D. Otherwise, there is a fear that the new paradigm that 4e introduced might start to creep into Pathfinder or other games.

Conversely, 4e fans feel the need to passionately defend a play style they have desperately desired for so long and are scared to death of losing if WotC doesn't succeed or if 5e takes a step backward towards a game style that they felt suffocated them for so long.

Before responding, understand that though I infinitely prefer Pathfinder to 4e, currently I'm much more invested in trying out other systems than I am in perpetuating Pathfinder as-is. So take what I'm about to say with a grain (or twenty grains) of salt. Just to get that out of the way. ;)

Some say that getting players--especially new players--to try any edition of D&D is a first step to getting them to play in your group, regardless of game. I don't know if I believe that.

As GMs, we're generally not fighting over the pool of "hardcore" players. I think all of us by now recognize that the "hardcore" will generally play anything as long as it's interesting. There are exceptions, of course.

But lots and lots of RPG groups have to fill out its ranks with those who are more casual in their play. To me, it's a much easier sell to get a player to switch groups if it's a game they already know and enjoy--or miracle of miracles, you're bringing a fresh, new player to the ranks of the initiated.

Now to a certain extent, is this all a moot point? Yeah, probably. People like what they like, and it's rare to convince someone otherwise. If I bring in a "casual" player into my group who was brought up in the 4e tradition of the game, he/she is either going to "grok" my group's style, or he/she isn't. And if they don't, it probably wasn't a good fit to begin with.


I don't think we'll ever put edition wars to rest, because it involves doing what people have been incapable of doing for thousands of years, tolerate the beliefs of others without fear of change.

I'm perfectly willing to tolerate those who prefer 4e over Pathfinder. They're absolutely welcome to play their preferred ruleset and playstyle. Doesn't mean I'm not going to attempt to persuade them to try something else if I think it's worthwhile. Or stand up for the types of games and playstyles I like to play. Or voice my opinion that the company that publishes 5e, and 6e, and 7e should at least consider my desires and imperatives as an RPG player, and that those imperatives have a valid place in the game they create.

I just don't see that wanting to increase my opportunities to get the most enjoyment out of the game(s) I love is somehow based out of fear. Along those same lines, I also don't think the idea that "I want to play the gamestyle I like, or I'd rather not play" is a negative either. Our time as gamers is finite. I'm looooooooong past the point where I'd rather "tolerate" sub-par RPG-ing than not play at all. If I'm going to play in an RPG group, it's because I'm getting what I want out of it.

And yes, I know, everyone says that "Ruleset doesn't matter, it's all about your group!" Frankly, in my experience, that's only partially true. People choose rulesets because they like the style of gameplay it naturally promotes. If I knew a group really, really liked 4e, and wanted to keep playing it for the foreseeable future, and they invited me to play, I'd be a lot more hesitant to join than if they were playing, well, really anything else, D&D or otherwise.

Why? Because at its core, the base assumptions about the style and focus of gameplay in 4e are polar opposites of how I generally get the most enjoyment out of my RPG experiences.

Mostly what I'm saying is, let's stop being disingenuous about what we want. Let's just be blunt--we all have something invested in the success of the games we like. Can there be two (or more) wildly successful companies in this market space? Maybe. But let's also be honest--there's definitely a risk involved, and the risk is that our game/company is the one that ends up marginalized in the future.

Additionally, even though half the market is PF and half is 4e, now that the split is out in the open there is no going back. 4e fans will no longer tolerate an edition of the game that doesn't serve their needs, and its now demonstrated that both camps are probably equal in size. Its not just a niche minority of D&D players. Meaning 50% of the market is going to look for an alternative if 5e doesn't build on the foundation 4e started. That seems like a powerful incentive for any company positioned to take advantage of it.

True. But ~50% of the market still looks at 3.x/Pathfinder as at least somewhat of a continuation of the "traditional" game they've been playing for 30+ years now.

The problem those who like 4e have now is that it appears that WotC is seriously wondering whether their 50% (maybe less) of the remaining market is really worth investing time and money into it anymore.

Ultimately, the real bottom line behind 5e and future editions is this: I think all of us still think/hope that there's a "better D&D" still out there that will better serve all of us, and re-unite the community. I know that's what I'm still hoping for.
 
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Just to clarify, I'm not saying that people prefer or advocate either for 4e or Pathfinder out of fear. Not at all. Liking PF or 4e is really a personal choice that is neither right or wrong. Nor has anything to do with fear.

I'm saying that the really vitriolic hate filled edition warring that we saw a lot of back in 2008, though not as much now, was and is fueled by a subconscious fear that one's preferred edition will be abandoned.

And again, that's just my personal opinion based on what I've read here, on the Paizo boards, at the WotC boards, and at RPG.net over the past 4 years since 4e came out.

I freely admit that its a blanket generalization that is purely my opinion. :)
 
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I'm saying that the really vitriolic hate [f]illed edition warring that we saw a lot of back in 2008, though not as much now, was and is fueled by a subconscious fear that one's preferred edition will be abandoned.
An interesting point. I suspect this is probably the case for some players-those that have relatively fluid gaming groups or who play at conventions or at their local gaming stores.

That said, for those of us who play consistently with the same people, I don't think that matters as much. I don't know any D&D people outside of the few who are in my group, I don't interact with the D&D community except online at places like this, and I don't much care what others are doing. In fact, given my heavily houseruled game and its homebrew setting, I know no one else is playing exactly what I play.

I do have some concerns about the direction of the hobby as a whole, but I'm not particularly afraid that my game will be abandoned. I suspect there are others that feel the same.
 

So 3e gamers can just keep our existing books and keep playing forever, but 4e gamers can't?

Its not so much about the game police taking your books. But books fall apart or get lost over time.

My 4e PHB1 is getting worn down, if it falls apart, if I lose it, or if I need an extra copy for someone and its out of print, I have no legal way of replacing it if WotC takes it out of print and I can't find one in the secondary market.

Whereas the PF SRD or the OGL SRD will always be legally available online. There's a sort of peace of mind that comes with knowing that. :)
 

Its not so much about the game police taking your books. But books fall apart or get lost over time.

My 4e PHB1 is getting worn down, if it falls apart, if I lose it, or if I need an extra copy for someone and its out of print, I have no legal way of replacing it if WotC takes it out of print and I can't find one in the secondary market.

Whereas the PF SRD or the OGL SRD will always be legally available online. There's a sort of peace of mind that comes with knowing that. :)

SRD online is not the same as having a book. And not all the rules are there (like not all the monsters).

For the books breaking down/getting lost reason, I have something like 7 copies of the 3.5 PHB (because my new players can't buy one anymore). But only 1 DMG, 1 of each Monster Manual, etc.

I hope to still be playing 3.5 D&D 30 years from now (when I'm 72). My AD&D stuff is 33 years old and still intact, so why not? :)
 

I'm saying that the really vitriolic hate filled edition warring that we saw a lot of back in 2008, though not as much now, was and is fueled by a subconscious fear that one's preferred edition will be abandoned.

I don't think it's "abandoned." If it was just "abandoned," I don't think many would lose much sleep over it. Abandoned simply means "they don't make it any more."

The real fear is more psychologically complex: it's being marginalized.

Marginalization is not just about being left behind, it's being told that what you want/wanted was inherently inferior to begin with. That you shouldn't have wanted it in the first place, because it was so "bad," and that by actually wanting it, you were wrong. Not in some subjective, personal opinion sense, but objectively wrong, if that makes any sense.

I'm having a whole other thought about how that sense of marginalization is much easier to produce with a product like D&D, where the social component of how the product is used plays such a key factor--compared to something like an iPod. But I don't have time to expound, maybe I'll come back to it later.
 

I hope to still be playing 3.5 D&D 30 years from now (when I'm 72). My AD&D stuff is 33 years old and still intact, so why not? :)

Nice! I should probably load up on extra copies of books myself. I still have my AD&D stuff. I plan on teaching my son how to play every edition of D&D when he gets older (he is only 1 now). We'll start with 1e/2e then to 3.x/PF, then 4e, and by the time he is old enough to play 5e or 6e will be out so we'll see how it goes.

I'd be really pleased if the rumors of 5e being a modular anniversary edition that includes modular rules allowing you to recreate your preferred edition turns out to be true. If so, I might just use that, but I think breaking out the old books would be fun too. :)
 

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