D&D 5E Is the stun from Psychic Scream permanent if it is impossible to make the save?

[ECMO3]

I think I'd allow both. My reasoning would be that, since the psychic scream obviously needs some kind of mind to take effect, the resulting trauma also has to be mental, and ongoing. So if you remove the mind, the effect would be gone.

The only question I would have is does it stay gone when the person turns back into a humanoid.

If you think about this - The prevailing opinion here is the spell causes permanent damage (essentially brain damamge). If you polymorph and then return to your form damage is not healed.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't know what to tell you. Your experiences differ from the metrics pulled from D&Dbeyond on how often cantrips are taken, they differ from most of the optimization guides out there, by Critical Role Stats metrics on the number of times that group used these cantrips (Mighty Nein cast guidance almost 10 times for every 1 use of Resistance, and Mending over 3 times more often than resistance) and they differ from my experiences.

Oh no I am not saying people shouldn't choose Guidance - I said I let someone else in my party cast it. Guidance is useful - I was speaking of Mending and Thaumaturgy.

The utility of cantrips is certainly modified by DM style, by campaign design, etc.... I didn't call it out because I know my experience is a bit different than others, but Mold Earth has been A tier for me. When setting up defenses it has allowed us to create walls and trenches. It allowed us to burrow through some dungeon areas. It allowed us to bury things quickly and recover them later. We've buried enemies alive with it (dig a 5 foot wide and 10 foot deep hole with it (requires 3 castings), get an enemy in the hole, cast once more to move dirt on top of them. I even have a PC that runs a construction business between adventures using cantrips, rituals and a few non-ritual spells ... he can build buildings in just a few days and this is a key spell in that process. However, I know a lot of the use cases I saw were DM and setting specific interpretations and options. 'Loose Earth' is going to be interpreted differently by different DMs. Jeremy Crawford once said, "think dirt, not stone." Some DMs think it is only useful in a field that has been recently plowed. Approaches differ. However, it was amazing for me, historically, with a wide variety of DMs - but rarely is appreciated by others. Ot seems like your experience with Resistance is like mine with Mold Earth - you have seen far more utility for it than the vast majority have.

Mold Earth is good. We use it like you use it (and I wish it were a Cleric cantrip).

For mending, I think a ton of DMs are unintentionally house ruling it. If something is big and broken a lot, Mending isn't supposed to work. It specifies "a single break or tear in an object...as long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension." It then details the examples for that which match that, "a broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn cloak, or a leaking wineskin."

I think a lot of DMs let you repair anything non-magical that's broken with Mending, repairing one break at a time. But it doesn't do that, as written. I think it's fine DMs houserule it to be more powerful, but out DMs don't.

As for Resistance, I think it's just because we do a LOT of dungeon exploration. Solving puzzles, bypassing traps, Resistance is called on for saves a lot in those situations.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

repairing one break at a time

It doesn't say you can't do that. Most things are made up of individual pieces. If I want to repair a rotten rope bridge, I repair one plank, then the next plank, then the next one, until the whole thing is done.

 

[Mistwell]

It doesn't say you can't do that. Most things are made up of individual pieces. If I want to repair a rotten rope bridge, I repair one plank, then the next plank, then the next one, until the whole thing is done.

Is the break "larger than 1 foot in any dimension"? If yes, Mending can't repair it. You can't, for instance, repair one foot of a break, then cast again and repair the next foot of the same break, etc.. It doesn't work that way as written, and they give several examples to reinforce it doesn't work that way. Now if they're all separate breaks and each individual break is just 1 foot or less then it works. But if one break is larger than 1 foot, mending does not repair a foot of it. It's just for small breaks. It seems like a house chores type cantrip, given the examples.

 

[jgsugden]

...For mending, I think a ton of DMs are unintentionally house ruling it. If something is big and broken a lot, Mending isn't supposed to work. It specifies "a single break or tear in an object...as long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension." It then details the examples for that which match that, "a broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn cloak, or a leaking wineskin."

I think a lot of DMs let you repair anything non-magical that's broken with Mending, repairing one break at a time. But it doesn't do that, as written. I think it's fine DMs houserule it to be more powerful, but out DMs don't.

I'd say you're getting into the realm of DM interpretation rather than DMs are houseruling something. A massive machine that was hit with a catapult can't be repaired by mending - but if you take the pieces of it apart and mend each one, you might be able to fix it.

The spell repairs one break or tear in an object you touch. The break or tear can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. The object can be any size. One example they provide is a cloak - which is much bigger than 1 foot in 2 different dimensions.

The spell does not say you can't repair more than 1 break or tear in an object with subsequent castings - just that you make only one repair per casting and that the repair can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension.

Let's say the PCs drive their wagon in rough terrain and end up breaking the rim of the wheel and several spokes. One mending spell can't fix the wheel because the damage is in multiple locations, and covers an area greater than 1 foot. However, each spoke might be able to be fixed (if you find all the parts or are missing areas smaller than 1 foot in length) with between one and a few mending spells. Further, if you have the outer rim of the wheel, you can hold the pieces in place and each break can be mended separately as the area to be mended is less than 1 foot in all dimensions.

With this in mind, so long as the maximim 'hole' dimension left in any object does not exceed 1 foot in any dimension, you can repair it. Even when it does, you might be able to repair parts of the damage by repairing 'subobjects' within the larger object (such as repairing the spokes on a wheel before repairing the rim of the wheel) and then be left with a gap that is now smaller than 1 foot.

I fully recognize that a DM might look at what is written and draw a different conclusion - but by RAW, I believe this to be the correct interpretation.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I'd say you're getting into the realm of DM interpretation rather than DMs are houseruling something. A massive machine that was hit with a catapult can't be repaired by mending - but if you take the pieces of it apart and mend each one, you might be able to fix it.

The spell repairs one break or tear in an object you touch. The break or tear can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. The object can be any size. One example they provide is a cloak - which is much bigger than 1 foot in 2 different dimensions.

The spell does not say you can't repair more than 1 break or tear in an object with subsequent castings - just that you make only one repair per casting and that the repair can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension.

Let's say the PCs drive their wagon in rough terrain and end up breaking the rim of the wheel and several spokes. One mending spell can't fix the wheel because the damage is in multiple locations, and covers an area greater than 1 foot. However, each spoke might be able to be fixed (if you find all the parts or are missing areas smaller than 1 foot in length) with between one and a few mending spells. Further, if you have the outer rim of the wheel, you can hold the pieces in place and each break can be mended separately as the area to be mended is less than 1 foot in all dimensions.

With this in mind, so long as the maximim 'hole' dimension left in any object does not exceed 1 foot in any dimension, you can repair it. Even when it does, you might be able to repair parts of the damage by repairing 'subobjects' within the larger object (such as repairing the spokes on a wheel before repairing the rim of the wheel) and then be left with a gap that is now smaller than 1 foot.

I fully recognize that a DM might look at what is written and draw a different conclusion - but by RAW, I believe this to be the correct interpretation.

Further, there is a legitimate cost of time in trying to mend something broken in many places. Each casting of Mending takes one full minute. Which, if time is something tracked at all in a campaign, could mean the cultists are further along in their ritual or the invisibility spell will end that much quicker or the wandering monster check is that much sooner or the rival adventuring team is that much closer to finding the McGuffin or... etc.

 

[Mistwell]

I'd say you're getting into the realm of DM interpretation rather than DMs are houseruling something. A massive machine that was hit with a catapult can't be repaired by mending - but if you take the pieces of it apart and mend each one, you might be able to fix it.

The spell repairs one break or tear in an object you touch. The break or tear can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. The object can be any size. One example they provide is a cloak - which is much bigger than 1 foot in 2 different dimensions.

The spell does not say you can't repair more than 1 break or tear in an object with subsequent castings - just that you make only one repair per casting and that the repair can be no larger than 1 foot in any dimension.

If the break or tear itself is more than 1 foot, you can't just repair 1 foot with a single casting and then the next foot or remainder with a second. It's a limitation listed in the spell - the break or tear itself cannot be more than 1 foot.

Let's say the PCs drive their wagon in rough terrain and end up breaking the rim of the wheel and several spokes. One mending spell can't fix the wheel because the damage is in multiple locations, and covers an area greater than 1 foot. However, each spoke might be able to be fixed (if you find all the parts or are missing areas smaller than 1 foot in length) with between one and a few mending spells. Further, if you have the outer rim of the wheel, you can hold the pieces in place and each break can be mended separately as the area to be mended is less than 1 foot in all dimensions.

Sure as long as each break, in itself, is not more than 1 foot. I think a lot of DMs let you repair a foot, then another foot, then another foot, moving along a big break with additional castings. Which I think is a fair house rule, it's just not how the spell is written.

 

[seebs]

If each individual plank of a broken bridge is under one foot wide, then you can repair the planks individually.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

It doesn't say you can't do that. Most things are made up of individual pieces. If I want to repair a rotten rope bridge, I repair one plank, then the next plank, then the next one, until the whole thing is done.

You can Mend a rotten plank, but it will still be rotten and likely break again when someone steps on it. Not recommended for bridge use!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If each individual plank of a broken bridge is under one foot wide, then you can repair the planks individually.

It's not the object that is limited to 1 foot in size, it's the break. "As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it". It could fix a 1 foot hole in a battleship.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You can Mend a rotten plank, but it will still be rotten and likely break again when someone steps on it. Not recommended for bridge use!

Nope: "leaving no trace of the former damage."

 

[James Gasik]

Nope: "leaving no trace of the former damage."

I think the argument is that the reason the plank broke in the first place isn't fixed, just the break itself.

Like imagine a sheet of ice that's thin enough to crack if a Barbarian steps on it. You could mend the cracks all you want, that won't make the ice thicker.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Nope: "leaving no trace of the former damage."

But rotting isn't damage as in a "single break or tear" that mending deals with, it's a change in the physical properties of the material. If you Mend a break in a rotten plank, it will look fine but still be far weaker than a fresh plank of strong wood.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think the argument is that the reason the plank broke in the first place isn't fixed, just the break itself.

If you want to limit the spell, you can argue that "rot" is not a "break or tear". I see no reason to do so though. Break away the rotten wood. So long as the gap left is less than 1 foot it is repaired with new wood.

Like imagine a sheet of ice that's thin enough to crack if a Barbarian steps on it. You could mend the cracks all you want, that won't make the ice thicker.

Ice is not an object*, so Mending doesn't work on it. If it did though, fixing the cracks as you walked across it would work. Ice cracks, the cracks spread, then it breaks. If you could fix the cracks before they spread you could cross the ice safely. The 1 minute cast would make mending too slow anyway, but there are other spells I might allow. Certainly Shape Water RAW. It's not beyond the power of cantrips.


*unless it's an ice sculpture. But fixing a shattered ice sculpture one break at a time would be a slow job.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

If you want to limit the spell, you can argue that "rot" is not a "break or tear". I see no reason to do so though. Break away the rotten wood. So long as the gap left is less than 1 foot it is repaired with new wood.

Just make sure you clear with your DM how he rules the spell before you try walking across your mended bridge!

 

[James Gasik]

If you want to limit the spell, you can argue that "rot" is not a "break or tear". I see no reason to do so though. Break away the rotten wood. So long as the gap left is less than 1 foot it is repaired with new wood.

Ice is not an object*, so Mending doesn't work on it. If it did though, fixing the cracks as you walked across it would work. Ice cracks, the cracks spread, then it breaks. If you could fix the cracks before they spread you could cross the ice safely. The 1 minute cast would make mending too slow anyway, but there are other spells I might allow. Certainly Shape Water RAW. It's not beyond the power of cantrips.


*unless it's an ice sculpture. But fixing a shattered ice sculpture one break at a time would be a slow job.

....how is ice not an object? Are you saying that if I had a spell that can target objects, it can't target ice?
But moving on from that point, the analogy holds; if the material was fragile enough to break, Mending cannot do anything about that fact. Dried out wood, glass floors, paper walls. You can fix the break, but you cannot alter the composition of the object. This isn't about nerfing the spell but limiting it to what it says it does: This spell repairs a single break or tear in an object you touch, such as broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn clack, or a leaking wineskin.

 

[jgsugden]

If the break or tear itself is more than 1 foot, you can't just repair 1 foot with a single casting and then the next foot or remainder with a second. It's a limitation listed in the spell - the break or tear itself cannot be more than 1 foot...

That depends entirely on whether there are 'sub objects' that can be repaired first leaving you with less than a 1 foot break/tear.

Picture a tile floor made up of 100 (9 inch by 9 inch) tiles. Someone comes by and smashes the entire floor into gravel. You decide to repair it. If you consider each tile to be a separate object, you can repair a tile with each casting. However, if you consider the object to be the floor, it would be impossible to fix it.

The wagon wheel is another example. Let's say you slash a wagon wheel with a great sword and shatter the rim in a spot and break 5 spokes acoross a 3 foot slash. You could fix each one as they are individually damaged in a less than 1 foot space. You could fix the rim as well as the area of it that is broken is less than 1 foot. Some DMs might require you to disassemble the wheel a bit to isolate the objects, but under RAW that is not required - each break can be no more than 1 foot, but the object can be broken in several places and have each break fixed with one casting.

 

[Mistwell]

That depends entirely on whether there are 'sub objects' that can be repaired first leaving you with less than a 1 foot break/tear.

Picture a tile floor made up of 100 (9 inch by 9 inch) tiles. Someone comes by and smashes the entire floor into gravel. You decide to repair it. If you consider each tile to be a separate object, you can repair a tile with each casting. However, if you consider the object to be the floor, it would be impossible to fix it.

The wagon wheel is another example. Let's say you slash a wagon wheel with a great sword and shatter the rim in a spot and break 5 spokes acoross a 3 foot slash. You could fix each one as they are individually damaged in a less than 1 foot space. You could fix the rim as well as the area of it that is broken is less than 1 foot. Some DMs might require you to disassemble the wheel a bit to isolate the objects, but under RAW that is not required - each break can be no more than 1 foot, but the object can be broken in several places and have each break fixed with one casting.

I think that's all fair and up to DM determination.

My larger question is how often is this coming up in people's campaigns? It seems very situational.

 

[Mort]

I think that's all fair and up to DM determination.

My larger question is how often is this coming up in people's campaigns? It seems very situational.

Mending is one of those cantrips that will either get a lot of play or no play at all - depending on the DM and the campaign.

Usually best taking it in a campaign where you already know what kind of situations the DM likes/allows. Otherwise it's a crapshoot.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

It does not look like Psychic Scream has a duration or concentration, just a save every round to end. So if a 20 Int Wizard (DC19) hits someone with it and they have a 3-7 Intelligence it would be permanently stunned correct?

The stunning will only last till the target makes their saving throw or the game developers recognize their mistake and issue an errata. So no, not permanent.