D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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See, to me, immersion is like being an actor in a play. The rules of the game and the rolls of the dice set your marks, and tell you what your next few lines should be, and how the scene should go. But once you have those in mind, you can be in character and make everything play out the way you want it to.

The constant "But why did this roll produce this result and not THAT result, when the other time it did THIS?" feels to me like being in a holodeck and poking around for the cameras.

Whereas for me, there are no marks, no lines, no cues. It's more like "Now that this character is experiencing that what is his response based on personality, memory, his knowledge as determined by the imperfect lens of description, and the options at his disposal?"

OK so I did this thing... and now I can't again. How can I associate that with my experiences so I understand something about how the character is feeling? Is it like I fired a cartridge from a gun and need to reload? Doesn't fit -- it is inherent. Am I too tired now? Doesn't fit -- no other option has been affected and they all rely on the same fundamental infrastructure. Hmm, I suppose it just is. That's unsatisfying.
 

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Whereas for me, there are no marks, no lines, no cues. It's more like "Now that this character is experiencing that what is his response based on personality, memory, his knowledge as determined by the imperfect lens of description, and the options at his disposal?"

OK so I did this thing... and now I can't again. How can I associate that with my experiences so I understand something about how the character is feeling? Is it like I fired a cartridge from a gun and need to reload? Doesn't fit -- it is inherent. Am I too tired now? Doesn't fit -- no other option has been affected and they all rely on the same fundamental infrastructure. Hmm, I suppose it just is. That's unsatisfying.
Sure, and I've done that method before as well. Mostly in World of Darkness games, but sometimes D&D as well. More 2e than 3e, though.

It's a solid method of getting immersed, although I find it works better in DM-driven games; these give more freedom to have long scenes without accessing metagame constraints. Narrative games tend to feel like more improv theatre, do A, scene change, do B. I enjoy it more because it gives me direction to focus the character on. Long scenes with no rules direction start to give me a feeling of "OK, what next?" as they can often drag.
 

What's wrong with them being physical abilities is that that's a dissociated mechanic. We know how physical abilities work, and they don't work like that
Firstly, martial abilities needn't be wholly physical. They can have mental dimension as well: courage, boldness, trickery, intimidation, and focus are among the mental abilities that a martial character might need to develop, use - and sometimes hold in 'reserve.'

Secondly, how do 'we' know how physical abilities of a hero work in the context of a fantasy world? Anyone here ever cut a giant's achillies tendon, killed a band of kobolds in six seconds flat, cut their way out of a purple worm? No. We can't rely on our workaday nerdly experience of 'physical abilities.'

However, even if we /were/ to do something that preposterous, it still doesn't support your assertion that 'deep reserves' must be 100% generic, and that exhausting your capacity to do one preternatural heroic stunt necessarily exhausts all such options. If you do a set of high-weight curls with one arm, the muscles of that arm are going to anaerobic and become unable to continue beyond many reps. That won't stop you from running.

So, even if your invocation of RL physical abilities were valid (and it isn't), it would provide counter-examples to your assertion, not support for it.

That line of reasoning having failed you, why can't you accept the official explanation of 'exhausting deep reserves' given in the PH1? And, even if you can't accept it, why do you do feel the need to substitute a dissociative one, given that you find dissociative mechanics unappealing?

You don't actually have to answer these questions, there. You might want to just stop and think about them. Chances are you have a reason that you, yourself, have not examined, and you may want to take a break and do that.

That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. Concentrating too hard on trying to read a textbook isn't going to physically exhaust your muscles the same way a game of basketball will. The idea of deep physical reserves
You're adding 'physical.'

The game is saying that you can't use an encounter or daily power again immediately (with the same level of effectiveness), despite having "deep reserves" that are available for other abilities. If in the real world I'd be able to spend those "deep reserves" on using the same stunt a second time, why is a fantasy game - with ostensibly greater freedom of action - placing a limitation on me from doing that?
The gamist reason is to enforce the kind of variety of action you see in the fantasy genre (and the broader heroic or 'action' genres). You don't see characters in genre acting like Gauntlet sprites and just whapping away repetitively. You /do/ see some 'signature' things that the character does, say, in most fight scenes, but they're not generally what they do at the big dramatic moment. Limited-use is a way of modeling that aspect of the genre.

In-game, the explanation of 'deep reserves' that may be compartmentalized is not any more difficult, intuitively, then they idea of fantasy-genre heroics, in the first place, nor any more or less valid or consistent than generic reserves.

These dissociated mechanics are the limits.
We've been through this. If you assert that limits make something dissociative, then Vancian is dissociative, and you're unwilling to accept that. Thus your definition of dissociative can't rest on limits.



The burden of proof that a non-supernatural ability isn't "generic" (though I'm not sure what you mean by that term) is on it to explain, not on us to presume. If something presents itself as being an ability found in the real world, and then changes the basic assumptions of how it functions, it needs to explain the what and how of what's changed.
I see your problem (well, one of 'em). Martial powers are presented as abilities found in heroic fantasy settings, not in the real world.

And, what I mean by generic is what /you/ mean by it. You assert - with no supporting evidence from the game itself nor from the genre the game emulates, nor even from reality - that the associative explanation for limited-use martial exploits given in the PH1 /can only be interpreted/ as generic resources that can be used interchangeably to enable any power, whether a Ranger's 'Crucial Advice,' that lets an ally re-roll a skill check with a bonus, or his 'Weave Through the Fray,' that lets him shift away when an enemy closes with him, for a particularly clear instance.

The issue isn't that "deep reserves" can't be spent to compose a sonnet or something - it's that they're presenting themselves as a reservoir of sudden physical prowess, akin to a burst of adrenaline, that pushes you to great heights for a particular task, but then leaves you too tired to do that again...except for performing any other task.
Again, you are adding restrictive language to the concept not found in the PH1, itself. You are changing explanation to make it dissociative. Why is it so important to you that it be dissociative?



Magic is explained, always. However it works within the context of the game world is implicit in what the characters know and can perceive. Even if you don't say precisely why each spell must be prepared as a discrete package of magical power, the characters still know that that's the only way it can be. Magic always has an in-game representation, and this representation is always associated because magic gets to set what its own limits are.
It seems like you're suffering (or quite enjoying) a profound double-standard here. Martial characters and Magical one are both characters from an heroic fantasy world. They are equally-weighted choices in the game. If there's a compelling genre reason to make them wildly disparate in effectiveness and importance, then, from the gamist perspective, those choices either have to very differently-weighted, or one character type or the other needs to be removed as a playable option. Otherwise the game becomes imbalanced.

You're splitting definitions here. If you want to say that fighter powers are a supernatural/preternatural/non-natural power, then just say that.
Look up 'preternatural.' It is not equivalent to supernatural or non-natural. And, yes, martial powers are supposed to be superhuman, but not supernatural. It may seem like a fine line, and it's probably a blurry one, too - so if it helps you avoid the dissociation you claim to abhor, imagine that there is a possibly-supernatural explanation at any point where you perceive a possible dissociation.

That simple solution, alone, should have kept you from ever complaining about dissociation, in the first place.
 
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It is exactly the definition I've been using.
And I still completely stick to the point that "story telling" defined as having powers outside those of the character is different than "roleplaying" defined as "having exactly the powers of the character".

I abandon nothing here.

You have, actually, but if it suits you to claim otherwise, fair enough.

Problematically, though, you've changed the definition of roleplaying from the one stated, again. Your definition is "having exactly the powers of the character", which is clearly not the same as "playing a specific character", because with a specific character, whilst we know who they are and what they can do in general terms, enough for them to be "specific", there is nothing preventing us from adding to that, in fact, it's pretty much requisite that we are going to be making up some stuff on the spot.

[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] - Where are you getting "Abnegation vs. Expression" from? I can't find definitions which seem to match up with the way you're using them. Is this some Forgist or academic thing?

I see your problem (well, one of 'em). Martial powers are presented as abilities found in heroic fantasy settings, not in the real world.

Indeed, and this is one of the big problems seemingly found pretty much solely in D&D discussions. Other RPGs, people openly accept that there is a genre, that there genre conventions, that it's not "the real world", and so on. It's only with D&D you find this constant "WELL YOU COULDN'T DO THAT IN REAL LIFE!" stuff living cheek-by-jowl with wizard possessing ludicrous abilities which are immune to question solely because they have MAGIC stamped on them (they didn't used to be immune to question, either, I seem to remember from the '90s).

It's like there's this unspoken sub-genre of D&D, where

As a complete topic change back to the 4E experience, I notice that a lot of this complaining is totally high-falutin' and not reflective of real, day-to-day grousing about 4E! :) Spectacular in it's absence is the once-everpresent "EVERYTHING IS CORE!", which used to be the source of literally endless "I HATE 4E BECAUSE THEY MAKE ME USE WARFORGED IN MY PRECIOUS CAMPAIGN!"-type rants, back in 2008/9. Man people got so wildly mad about it. Also the lack of an obvious/explicit Rule 0. Hoo boy did people hate that.
 
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Sure, and I've done that method before as well. Mostly in World of Darkness games, but sometimes D&D as well. More 2e than 3e, though.

It's a solid method of getting immersed, although I find it works better in DM-driven games; these give more freedom to have long scenes without accessing metagame constraints. Narrative games tend to feel like more improv theatre, do A, scene change, do B. I enjoy it more because it gives me direction to focus the character on. Long scenes with no rules direction start to give me a feeling of "OK, what next?" as they can often drag.

Yeah and that's why while I enjoy running more shared-narrative systems, I don't like playing them. As a player I stick to games where "someone else" worries about "everything else" so that I can have the luxury of worrying about just this one thing on this rare event where I get to play.

The couple of times I tried playing FATE were no fun, but the times I ran FATE were great.
 

I'm sorry, but until you explain why people will play a game they don't like, you don't have room to call others ridiculous.
I'm not positing that anyone would play a game they disliked, so it's a moot point.


But I claim that 4E fell of much faster. It certainly had a much shorter life.
We can agree - and the general wisdom in the industry bears us out - that RPGs in general and D&D in particular tend to sell best when they introduce core books and drop off rapidly after that.

/You/ claim that 4e fell off 'much' faster than other eds. You must support that claim. You cannot. The claim is rejected.

People will not play a game they don't like. You claimed, initially, that people would "come around". Now you are arguing the point that every system loses players over time.
No, I claimed that they would /either/ 'come around' and adopt the new game, or become less vocal and active in the community for lack of anything new for the version they continued to play to maintain their interest or spark discussion. The proportion isn't important, as both result in the nerdrage fading away.

I also don't claim that systems lose players over time - that's your interpretation of the fact that core books sell a lot more than later supplements. I make no claim about /why/ core books sell better - it could be people leaving the game in droves, it could be players buying core books but only DMs buying supplements, it could be the perception that supplements or less official, it could be that quality often drops off, etc... In fact, I would assert that you can't determine which of those, or what combination of them is actually at work, because the data available aren't detailed enough.



Quit making excuses and show me a proactive reason to think "h4ters" would adopt it.
I never said they would. I asserted that one of the reason hold-outs fulminated into full-scale h4ters and actively edition-warred was the ongoing support their favored edition enjoyed via the OGL. While I'm sure /some/, perhaps a trivial minority, would've come around if they hadn't had that kind of re-enforcement, the contribution of the OGL to the 'perfect storm' wasn't preventing hypothetical late-adoption, but fueling the edition war, and enabling the publication of Pathfinder (or something like it, if Paizo hadn't gone there).

The 'failure' of 4e had nothing to do with it's non-adoption by hold-outs. That happens to every edition. It had to do with the bar for success being set unrealistically high, and the novel means intended to make up the vast gulf between that goal and the past performance of the entire industry, being scuttled by a human tragedy. The OGL third of the perfect storm merely allowed Pathfinder to exist, so it could be there to step into the vacuum left behind by the implosion of the line with Essentials.

The content of the games involved is irrelevant.
 

As a complete topic change back to the 4E experience, I notice that a lot of this complaining is totally high-falutin' and not reflective of real, day-to-day grousing about 4E! :) Spectacular in it's absence is the once-everpresent "EVERYTHING IS CORE!", which used to be the source of literally endless "I HATE 4E BECAUSE THEY MAKE ME USE WARFORGED IN MY PRECIOUS CAMPAIGN!"-type rants, back in 2008/9. Man people got so wildly mad about it. Also the lack of an obvious/explicit Rule 0. Hoo boy did people hate that.
Oh man, "Everything is core!" That takes me back.

Wasn't here at ENWorld, but I remember some terrible rows about sorcerers back on the WotC forums, complaining about them using Str or Dex as their add-on stat for damage, and it didn't make any sense that halflings made good sorcerers. Fun times.

I miss 2009 for 4e. That was actually a pretty fun time to be a 4e fan. PHB2 was a great book, the offline character builder was in full swing, and we had endless debates about what classes there would be for the ki and elemental and shadow power sources. We actually had a sense of anticipation back then.
 

Yeah and that's why while I enjoy running more shared-narrative systems, I don't like playing them. As a player I stick to games where "someone else" worries about "everything else" so that I can have the luxury of worrying about just this one thing on this rare event where I get to play.

The couple of times I tried playing FATE were no fun, but the times I ran FATE were great.
It's funny, because I love playing FATE, but the few times I ran it, I had some trouble. Juggling aspects gave me a bit of mental overload, since the players weren't so good at suggesting compels.

That's why there's different games for different folks, I guess.
 

You have, actually, but if it suits you to claim otherwise, fair enough.

Problematically, though, you've changed the definition of roleplaying from the one stated, again. Your definition is "having exactly the powers of the character", which is clearly not the same as "playing a specific character", because with a specific character, whilst we know who they are and what they can do in general terms, enough for them to be "specific", there is nothing preventing us from adding to that, in fact, it's pretty much requisite that we are going to be making up some stuff on the spot.
And, as happens so frequently, someone else claims to be a better authority on what I said than I am.

This is exactly the point I've made throughout. I'm glad you have come around to understanding it and no longer disagree.
 


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