But, even if they point out many, it's still invalid to claim that it started with 4e, when other systems from prior eds fit the same definition. And, really, hps are only one example. Depending on the definition chosen, quite a lot of other classic mechanics fit.
My definition of dissociation is best described as a feeling. The
reason for a feeling can be rationalized, but the
existence of a feeling cannot be. If you're upset, you're upset. You might not understand why you're upset, or you might give superfluous reasons, but the feeling cannot be denied. If a person plays 4E, doesn't like something about it but can't put his finger on it, and then someone comes with a label of 'dissociation', and this person (for lack of a better term, perhaps) says "Yes, that's what I'm feeling", how do you deny that? They play 5E and don't feel it. They play 4E and they do feel it. You point out that 5E has so-and-so dissociated elements. So what? You haven't invalidated their feeling. It is real. So that's kind of where I'm coming from here. I realize now I'm probably coming in with a different approach, or just articulating it different than others. Given that, no, pointing out that so-and-so exists in 3E or 5E doesn't change anything whatsoever about their feelng that they've labelled (for better or worse) as "dissociation". if you want to argue that dissociation is the wrong term, ya, I'm on the fence on that, but it's part of the lexicon now. That's something that we have to accept until something better replaces it in public forums.
What was your takeaway from post 272, and how does it prove that accusing one edition of using a type of mechanic that's been used in all editions a valid criticism?
I'm not trying to prove anything of the sort. I was trying to call you on your method of criticism. As for my takeaway lesson of
272, I don't mean to sound shy, but I don't see the incentive. AFAIR, this all started because Nagol reluctantly answered someone about his list of dislikes and was roundly criticized. Furthermore, it feels like 6 years of trench warfare where few have budged their positions. What incentive to embroil myself in the dirty details?