D&D 5E Is there a good Faceman option for rogues?

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, DPR schmee-PR. It's a limiting way to look at character builds to begin with, and even less useful in this example. No offense meant @Ruin Explorer , I just don't see the importance here. The importance of DPR as a metric rises in direct relation to the importance of combat as en encounter resolution tool. The concept of the Face is, first, a low combat/DPR idea to begin with, and, second, a concept that would only really be considered for a low DPR game anyway. Obviously there's a sliding scale, and there are lots of stops between my position and yours.

What I'm getting at is that if I want to build a face, why would I concern myself with DPR at the cost of the core competencies for the concept I'm building? Assuming for a moment that I had decided that the campaign in question was the correct one to support such a build.

You're making your character rubbish at their secondary job for no actual gain.

That's the problem you and some others don't seem to be actually getting.

What you're proposing does not make you a good Face. At all. I've played a lot of Faces in D&D and other games. In 5E, to be a good Face, without magic getting involved, you want a high CHA (but it doesn't need to crazy), and you want as good of Persuasion, Deception and Insight as you can get (often you have to accept another PC will be making the Insight checks though).

You say DPR doesn't matter. Okay, but nothing about being a Face says you should be using the Help action or anything else you've suggested. That's not a Face thing. That's a support character thing, or a planner/leader thing. Who are different tropes, and often/usually different classes to the Face.

Also there's no such thing as a "low-DPR game". Combat is combat. It doesn't matter if there's a little or a lot. You need to be decent at it in order to not die, unless your DM totally softballs all the combat, which isn't part of the equation that leads to playing a Face. If you are saying "I know my DM will only throw total softball combat at me, so I don't need to be good at combat!", well, okay, that's weird, but okay, and even then Mastermind is not the best choice for a Face.

You haven't actually argued against what I'm saying. Let's make it even clearer, I am saying that, as Rogue, to be a good Face, the MAIN THING you need, is to use your Expertise on Persuasion, Deception, and I would suggest Insight. Make sure your CHA is at least 14 (you can go higher, but there's very little point initially unless you're rolling stats or the like). If you have a way to get 16 CHA and 16 DEX without ridiculously gimping yourself, great. But your first ASI should probably still go in DEX, because the gain from putting it in CHA is smaller than that unless literally you do, every day, all day, is talk to people. Which this being D&D, you don't. You also sneak, stab, fight and so on.

And that's it.

You did it!

You became a good Face as a Rogue. By putting Expertise in three skills. You can put the fourth either in Intimidate (if you also want to be a Scary Face), or something more directly useful, like Perception (as you probably want at least a positive WIS mod for that Insight).

You don't even need a subclass. You are already a good Face. Assuming you have the RP chops to back it up, but we have to assume that.

Mastermind doesn't really give you anything mechanically. Proficiency in some stuff you could well be proficient in anyway, a couple of languages and the accent-imitation trick (which you can certainly do without being a Mastermind, it just might require a check).

At least it's a lot lower-level and easier to use than the Assassin stuff, though that is eventually more powerful (and very similar in function).

Inquisitive doesn't give you much either - Ear for Deceit and Eye for Detail are cute rather than great, and Ear is invalidated by Reliable Talent at 11th.

Soulknife is the best so far - Psi-bolstered Knack is a massive mechanical advantage for a Face, easily outperforming all the stuff we've seen so far outside of hyper-niche situations.

Swashbuckler is strong for a Face, in a couple of ways. The early abilities don't make you a better Face, but they make a Face a better Rogue without sacrificing Face-ness. And Panache is incredibly strong for a Face, who will have Expertise in Persuasion. The out-of-combat effect is particularly nice, as it is one of the rare occasions where just rolling social skills IS in fact, magical!

So if we're talking "who is actually the best Face?", then I think it's clearly going to be the Soulknife. If we're talking about who combines being an extremely good Face with being an extremely good Rogue, including turning backstab into frontstab, then it's Swashbuckler.

It sure as heck isn't a Mastermind who is blowing every action and bonus action to grant single-attack Advantage to his buddies. As I said, Hannibal isn't Face.

 

[Iry]

Revived.

You can Face with the dead, which is often incredibly useful. You can swap skills around like Disguise, Forgery, or just a tool the target uses so you can get advantage in conversation. You can talk to death itself. Sneak Attack with your bonus action, and walk through walls and into balls or dignitary rooms.

 

[bedir than]

I'm a big fan of the "Help as bonus action" feature. In fact, something along the lines of an Essentials Sidekick could be a cool approach --- Expertise in Diplomacy and Bluff, and default mode in combat is Dodge + bonus Help, as the comic relief sidekick miraculously survives another fight while the hero seemingly does all the work.

I think that any game where one of the PCs is playing a "faceman" character involves at least a tacit agreement between DM and players that this is gonna be the type of game where that skill set comes into play.

I would love a playable full-PC Expert that picks up Feats at a Fighter's rate (or better) and is the worst, without a doubt bad, at combat.

 

[Fenris-77]

@Ruin Explorer - Rubbish? I find that an interesting characterization since I didn't actually lay out any stats, or talk about how the character would get built other than to say the focus would be on CHA, rather than DEX. Perhaps you thought I was going to dump, or ignore DEX, I'm not sure. The lovely thing about the Rogue is that he's decent in melee because of SA even if I don't pump his DEX to the max. I wouldn't dump it though, that would be silly. So all we're really talking about is first and second stats out of an array getting swapped.

In a social interaction heavy game if you;re building the primary Face, you probably do need to max out CHA at the expense of DEX, or you should. The whole party is relying on your roll to get past the obstacle, whatever it is, so it makes no sense to build a second class operator for that job. The less SI you have the less important that gets, but I did mention in my post that I'm assuming a SI heavy game. I have the rest of the party who can build for combat, and, as I mentioned, a Rogue with 14 DEX is still a reasonable striker for the build. If could bump the DEX here to 16 I would.

Also, being able to help twice a round with the Mastermind is a a pretty decent buff ability. It's better the bigger the party gets in direct relationship to the shrinking combat role that indexes. I wouldn't call it nothing. Any rogue can be used for this build and they'll all be pretty good. The reason I suggested Swashbuckler first further upstream is that then you can build to CHA first with better synergy, and the subclass abilites are more useful than the Mastermind. Better initiative and mobility are pretty perfect for a squishy build.

The Soul Knife is awesome too, no doubt about that. I have it in the second tier until we see official rules for it though. If you were allowed to use it as is then sure, that would a top tier pick for sure.

Anyway, I think you were assuming some things about my proposed build that weren't accurate, but I feel like we're mostly on the same page.

 

[TwoSix]

I would get expertise in Medicine, assuming we're talking about Dr. Leo Faceman.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I didn't actually lay out any stats

Yeah, you didn't, but you're continuing the argument a previous poster made, and he laid out 14 DEX 18 CHA, which is just a silly thing to do, and it really looks like you're suggesting the same.

In a social interaction heavy game if you;re building the primary Face, you probably do need to max out CHA at the expense of DEX, or you should.

No. Absolutely not. Expertise is more than enough. If it wasn't in play I'd agree. But it is, and so is Reliable Talent from 11th (which is insane for social stuff, totally insane).

The whole party is relying on your roll to get past the obstacle, whatever it is, so it makes no sense to build a second class operator for that job.

This is simply unreasonable when Expertise is in the mix. If you actually need 18 CHA and Expertise, something is really messed-up. 14 or 16 CHA will be fine for your entire career, with Expertise. No plan can rely on a single successful roll here, and no DM who is worth his salt will design social encounters so a single roll prevents forward progress on the adventure. When you get to 11th, with 14 CHA and Expertise, your minimum roll will be 20. I don't know what kind of lies it is you plan on telling with this guy, but like, that's enough.

This is D&D. Even if it's extremely social-heavy, you're going to be fine. Plus remember, unless your party is downright incompetent, you will almost always have Advantage on Persuasion/Deception checks (not Insight, typically), thanks to the Help action out of combat (from them to you).

Also, being able to help twice a round with the Mastermind is a a pretty decent buff ability.

It really isn't. The Bonus Action Advantage, if being used to enable a character who gains an unusual advantage from er... Advantage is a decent use of a Bonus Action. But only if you have that guy in the party, and he somehow can't get Advantage any other way (which seems unlikely). In other situations it's not dire, but it's pretty bloody silly to do it unless:

A) Your Sneak Attack already landed on your main Action.

or

B) You cannot practically Sneak Attack this round, and it's also not likely that you can use the Bonus Action to get in position to do it next round with Advantage (because if you can grant yourself Advantage next round, with a Bonus Action this round, that is almost certainly the best possible use of your Bonus Action here).

Using your main Action for it? That's beyond foolish in virtually all situations as a Rogue. That's typically active self-sabotage, and barring bizarre situations (like you're unable to move but able to act and can't do a ranged Sneak Attack), is actively reducing the capability of your party, not increasing it. That's not to say it will never come up - but we're talking about how most adventuring days will pass without a valid time you'd use it in combat.

But either way, that's absolutely not a Face ability, it's a support character/leader ability.

Re: Soulknife, well, I can only speak for what it is, not what it might be. Right now, it's the best Face a Rogue can be, and it's not even a close race (which oddly enough, is probably spot-on for a psychic). Swashbuckler, as I feel you agree, is a very very strong choice for a Rogue who both charms/deceives and stabs.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, you didn't, but you're continuing the argument a previous poster made, and he laid out 14 DEX 18 CHA, which is just a silly thing to do, and it really looks like you're suggesting the same.

I was just continuing my own post mostly, where I talked about subclasses not stats. Why am I responsible for what someone else posted? If you wanted to rag on the stat layout why not quote that other post?

No. Absolutely not. Expertise is more than enough. If it wasn't in play I'd agree. But it is, and so is Reliable Talent from 11th (which is insane for social stuff, totally insane).

Goodness no, you don't need to stack all those in one basket. Expertise is the best way to get a solid roll in a non-core stat skill, like Perception or Insight, without a high stat, or pumping a skill like Stealth that (in this case) is linked to a secondary stat and that you want to be high. I want the benefit of decent CHA spread out over the CHA based skills, that's why it needs to be reasonably high.

This is simply unreasonable when Expertise is in the mix. If you actually need 18 CHA and Expertise, something is really messed-up. 14 or 16 CHA will be fine for your entire career, with Expertise. No plan can rely on a single successful roll here, and no DM who is worth his salt will design social encounters so a single roll prevents forward progress on the adventure. When you get to 11th, with 14 CHA and Expertise, your minimum roll will be 20. I don't know what kind of lies it is you plan on telling with this guy, but like, that's enough.

This is D&D. Even if it's extremely social-heavy, you're going to be fine.

Asked and answered above. I want the CHA bonus spread out over multiple skills and expertise doesn't do that.

It really isn't. The Bonus Action Advantage, if being used to enable a character who gains an unusual advantage from er... Advantage is a decent use of a Bonus Action. But only if you have that guy in the party, and he somehow can't get Advantage any other way (which seems unlikely). In other situations it's not dire, but it's pretty bloody silly to do it unless:

A) Your Sneak Attack already landed on your main Action.

or

B) You cannot practically Sneak Attack this round, and it's also not likely that you can use the Bonus Action to get in position to do it next round with Advantage (because if you can grant yourself Advantage next round, with a Bonus Action this round, that is almost certainly the best possible use of your Bonus Action here).

Using your main Action for it? That's beyond foolish in virtually all situations as a Rogue. That's typically active self-sabotage, and barring bizarre situations (like you're unable to move but able to act and can't do a ranged Sneak Attack), is actively reducing the capability of your party, not increasing it. That's not to say it will never come up - but we're talking about how most adventuring days will pass without a valid time you'd use it in combat.

But either way, that's absolutely not a Face ability, it's a support character/leader ability.

Good gravy. I need to dispel some misconceptions I guess. None of the options in this thread have only Face type abilities, so why is this an issue? If this character was primarily missile support, for example, in a normal combat situation, then having the extra help from the back lines is a fine thing to have. I never suggested that two help actions should be your primary thing, only that is has some utility. I will also point out that in a lot of urban settings you run into choke points for combat pretty regularly, which means that useful actions from the back rank might be more useful than you seem to think.

I think it's also worth mentioning here that my first pick was the Swashbuckler, not the Mastermind. Again, I can't speak for other posters, and perhaps you could lay off conflating things you think I mean for what I've actually said. It makes this whole process easier. I do think the Mastermind would be pretty solid, but it's not my first choice.

Re: Soulknife, well, I can only speak for what it is, not what it might be. Right now, it's the best Face a Rogue can be, and it's not even a close race. Swashbuckler, as I feel you agree, is a very very strong choice for a Rogue who both charms/deceives and stabs.

I'd be very happy if they left that portion of the Soul Knife in. It's a fun class. I don't want to get to excited until I know it's staying though. If I was building this character right now, it would be my first choice for sure.

 

[Quartz]

For example, the PCs are sent to negotiate with an enemy army's leader.

Remember that you only roll when the result is in doubt. In your example the result is not in doubt so the rogue does not get to roll. If the player pre-emptively rolls then the DM just ignores it.

 

[akr71]

With the number of skills that a rogue gets and Expertise, any rogue can make a good faceman. However, the Assassin, Mastermind & Swashbuckler get other abilities along the way that certainly help.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I will also point out that in a lot of urban settings you run into choke points for combat pretty regularly, which means that useful actions from the back rank might be more useful than you seem to think.

I've spent the last six sessions fighting down sadly realistically narrow corridors with two different campaigns with different DMs (sometimes 5' or less, everyone loves squeezing!), so I am aware. But you've going to have to be REALLY hard-up before using your main Action to do Help is something you're considering ahead of say shooting a Light Crossbow and just eating the +2 AC the monster has from people being in the way. Maybe if you're having to shoot past two people or more? And there's like literally nothing else you can do. I would definitely be asking some questions about the party composition and movement order that lead to this situation though!

Bonus Action making it worthwhile in a lower bar, I think I outlined the conditions above, and yeah narrow corridor fighting would sometimes make that the case (but if your party positioned right, you could be doing some really good melee Sneak Attacks with Bonus Action disengages even in a 10' wide corridor - you just need to stagger the two people up front (Shield Masters, albeit rare at low levels, can help a lot by shoving monsters to create space too).