OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[The-Magic-Sword]

The problem with keys that present information inefficiently is that they’re hard to use at the table. It shouldn’t be necessary to prep the key to run an adventure. One should be able to use it as-is, which is unfortunately not true of many pre-written adventures. Technology won’t fix that.

This is interesting to me, in that i dont think ive ever seen an adventure where its entirety can be disseminated in the key? Hot Springs Island and Barrowmaze both break with their hex key to detail the dungeon complexes in room by room fashion. To me that suggests some hexes in the world are so flush with stuff and moving parts they require that part of the key to be prepped by someone. The hex map would then break down into areas simple enough to be run off the cuff, and areas the GM will want to prep in advance (likely a small fraction of the total map.)

 

[kenada]

This is interesting to me, in that i dont think ive ever seen an adventure where its entirety can be disseminated in the key? Hot Springs Island and Barrowmaze both break with their hex key to detail the dungeon complexes in room by room fashion.

Oh, I was mostly talking about dungeon keys. You did mention sandboxes though. I know the Alexandrian suggests sometimes keying dungeons in your hex key if they’re simple, but I prefer maintaining separate documents. Entering a dungeon feels like enough of a context switch that keeping the rest of the hex material available isn’t useful. For either type of key, I prefer the approach Necrotic Gnome uses.

Gavin Norman is working on a Dolmenwood hex crawl. I won’t ever run it, but I’m going to buy it to see if he has any interesting new ideas for writing up hex keys. Depending on your exploration procedure, there’s varying amounts of contextual information you need beyond just the hex contents (like wandering monsters tables, travel speeds, etc).

To me that suggests some hexes in the world are so flush with stuff and moving parts they require that part of the key to be prepped by someone. The hex map would then break down into areas simple enough to be run off the cuff, and areas the GM will want to prep in advance (likely a small fraction of the total map.)

I’d expect each hex to have something keyed in it beyond just the terrain type and wandering monsters tables. An empty expanse of wilderness is pretty boring. Depending on the size of your map, that can be a ton of work, and potentially a lot of wasted work, which is why I really like the tags system in SWN/WWN.

The way tags work in SWN/WWN is every tag comes with a description plus an enemy, a friend, a conflict, a thing, and a place. When you need some adventuring grist, you generate tags and blend their elements together to create it. There’s also a fractal adventure generator in the deluxe edition of WWN that can give you further ideas. For sandbox play, SWN and WWN have a lot of really good ideas tools. (Further WWN discussion probably ought to go in its own thread).

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Oh, I was mostly talking about dungeon keys. You did mention sandboxes though. I know the Alexandrian suggests sometimes keying dungeons in your hex key if they’re simple, but I prefer maintaining separate documents. Entering a dungeon feels like enough of a context switch that keeping the rest of the hex material available isn’t useful. For either type of key, I prefer the approach Necrotic Gnome uses.

Gavin Norman is working on a Dolmenwood hex crawl. I won’t ever run it, but I’m going to buy it to see if he has any interesting new ideas for writing up hex keys. Depending on your exploration procedure, there’s varying amounts of contextual information you need beyond just the hex contents (like wandering monsters tables, travel speeds, etc).


I’d expect each hex to have something keyed in it beyond just the terrain type and wandering monsters tables. An empty expanse of wilderness is pretty boring. Depending on the size of your map, that can be a ton of work, and potentially a lot of wasted work, which is why I really like the tags system in SWN/WWN.

The way tags work in SWN/WWN is every tag comes with a description plus an enemy, a friend, a conflict, a thing, and a place. When you need some adventuring grist, you generate tags and blend their elements together to create it. There’s also a fractal adventure generator in the deluxe edition of WWN that can give you further ideas. For sandbox play, SWN and WWN have a lot of really good ideas tools. (Further WWN discussion probably ought to go in its own thread).

Makes sense, you remind me we actually had a spirited debate in my discord about expanding pf2e's hexploration actions chart to include higher speeds, and to redesign the unrealistically slow ships accordingly.

But tbf, im comfortable with the fact my hex map is going to have a lot of hexes that are boring by default, the island structure intrinsically makes it a cross between a node crawl (islands are natural points of interest) and a hex crawl (hexes are great for authentic feeling sea chart navigation, when used a player known structure) im planning on a random event chart applied to regions of ocean for random monster attacks and other things, and some ocean hexes will still be keyed deliberately to contain certain things. It should come alive when adjudicating long term chases, races, ambushes and etc.

We're very likely to have players furnish the GM with a plotted course when the adventure is scheduled, so they can be prepared to check the shared GM-facing key if anything has been established for those hexes and islands. If the voyage is structured in a way that makes a preset course impossible (like having to actually search ocean hexes) the GM will at least know the general area of the hex map the players are navigating through.

This is all subject to change of course, i need to refine it to make sure its properly usable.

 

[Mannahnin]

This is why I've been saying I'd love to see a streamlined, nostalgia-inspired ruleset that doesn't have the low power levels of OSR. Because when we were gaming back in the olden days, it never felt that deadly. Maybe it was a different mindset, maybe we used house rules, maybe we weren't playing it "right" - but it didn't feel like tripping over your own feet would kill you; it didn't feel like a single kobold with a sling would kill you.
The games back then felt heroic, awesome, exciting. OSR doesn't capture that to me. I love the idea of it, but it's just not there.

Some of it is how you DM. The level of threats deployed, and how rarely you put deadly poison and energy drain in your game, for two examples. (I use them, but not all the time, and I signpost the danger.) Utilizing Reaction Rolls to increase the number of creatures which will negotiate instead of leaping to violence, and Morale rolls to ensure that at least SOME enemies will run after a casualty, or after the leader dies, or after the PCs hit them with a spell, or after half their number have fallen, also makes the game less deadly. You can also just utilize GM fiat there; lots of times it makes more sense for monsters to get the heck out of dodge rather than fighting to the death.

Some OSR rules sets DO start you a bit more powerful by default. As Kaneda has been talking about for a while, Worlds Without Number is an example. I might suggest The Nightmares Underneath as another.

And with the core basic D&D ones, the option is also certainly always there to employ a few simple house rules. Like automatically starting with max HP at first level. Or just starting the PCs at 3rd level (or the equivalent XP, if you're using a system with different XP charts; 4k or 5k are good numbers in OSE, I think). I find that in OSE, AD&D, or OD&D usually about 3rd level is where everyone but M-Us and Thieves has a good bit of durability and can take a couple/few hits before dropping, so it feels a bit more heroic and less scary.

 

[Retreater]

And with the core basic D&D ones, the option is also certainly always there to employ a few simple house rules. Like automatically starting with max HP at first level. Or just starting the PCs at 3rd level (or the equivalent XP, if you're using a system with different XP charts; 4k or 5k are good numbers in OSE, I think). I find that in OSE, AD&D, or OD&D usually about 3rd level is where everyone but M-Us and Thieves has a good bit of durability and can take a couple/few hits before dropping, so it feels a bit more heroic and less scary.

I dunno. I was playing a 4th level cleric with great HP rolls (the highest in the party) and great AC. He was dropped in a single round when a bear came out of nowhere and killed him. No chance to detect it, no chance to fight back.
My group has such a sour taste in its mouth about OSE right now, I don't know if they'll want to go back to any old school style game, regardless of level, house rules, etc.
But I assume that I'm taking over as DM tonight, so we'll see what they want to do. (Unfortunately, there won't be time to look over or adequately pitch any non-D&D systems with them.)

 

[kenada]

I dunno. I was playing a 4th level cleric with great HP rolls (the highest in the party) and great AC. He was dropped in a single round when a bear came out of nowhere and killed him. No chance to detect it, no chance to fight back.
My group has such a sour taste in its mouth about OSE right now, I don't know if they'll want to go back to any old school style game, regardless of level, house rules, etc.
But I assume that I'm taking over as DM tonight, so we'll see what they want to do. (Unfortunately, there won't be time to look over or adequately pitch any non-D&D systems with them.)

The way things are supposed to work is you roll for surprise. If the bear was expecting you, it wouldn’t have to roll. Otherwise both sides have a 2-in-6 chance of being surprised. The GM also should have rolled for encounter distance. On average in a dungeon, it can’t get to you in one round (even if it does have surprise). It’s no wonder people are soured on the system when PCs are killed randomly with no warning.

 

[Retreater]

The way things are supposed to work is you roll for surprise. If the bear was expecting you, it wouldn’t have to roll. Otherwise both sides have a 2-in-6 chance of being surprised. The GM also should have rolled for encounter distance. On average in a dungeon, it can’t get to you in one round (even if it does have surprise). It’s no wonder people are soured on the system when PCs are killed randomly with no warning.

He also didn't use Reactions, Morale, wouldn't allow reasonable courses of action to succeed, listened in on our plans and had the enemies "magically adapt" to counter our plans. Traps could only be found and detected by thieves making successful rolls (we couldn't find them using procedure searches, logical ways to avoid them). Gave no treasure or magic items in nearly 9 months of play (we only got monster XP). It was not a good experience.

 

[kenada]

He also didn't use Reactions, Morale, wouldn't allow reasonable courses of action to succeed, listened in on our plans and had the enemies "magically adapt" to counter our plans. Traps could only be found and detected by thieves making successful rolls (we couldn't find them using procedure searches, logical ways to avoid them). Gave no treasure or magic items in nearly 9 months of play (we only got monster XP). It was not a good experience.

That sounds horrible. It’s like your GM read the Principia Apocrypha and then did the opposite.

 

[payn]

He also didn't use Reactions, Morale, wouldn't allow reasonable courses of action to succeed, listened in on our plans and had the enemies "magically adapt" to counter our plans. Traps could only be found and detected by thieves making successful rolls (we couldn't find them using procedure searches, logical ways to avoid them). Gave no treasure or magic items in nearly 9 months of play (we only got monster XP). It was not a good experience.

Oh man, I had a GM that was horrible about the plans thing. As players we had a habit of overthinking things. I was like Dark Helmet always telling my Col. Sanders group to just go and stop preparing. One time it didnt go well so now they are once bitten twice shy and want to spend entire sessions going over plans. The GM then of course always has our plan fall apart at key moments that are rather suspicious. It got to the point Id ask the GM to leave the room while we planned our approach. He'd still screw us. Some GMs just like kicking their players in the junk.

 

[Retreater]

That sounds horrible. It’s like your GM read the Principia Apocrypha and then did the opposite.

I'll chalk it up to his running OSE with more a modern DM mindset. I don't think he was trying to do it wrong, but he also wouldn't listen to our feedback, which was the main failing.