D&D 5E Is this a good encounter?

[Ancalagon]

Hello

So I have a party of 4 adventurers at level 3 (Barbarian, cleric, paladin, warlock). This isn't a game balance question but more of a "is this a fun/interesting encounter"

The party is going to be exploring the "Old City" (this is in Yoon Suin), a portion of a city that has been overgrown with jungle – so lots of ruins, old structure and lots of wildlife etc. The party will have had an easy fight with a few giant spiders, driving them off after a few rounds of combat.

However, their exploration will bring them deeper into the territory of the old spiders, and later on they will be attacked by a horde of spiders. This is the encounter I want to ask you about.

The players will instantly realized that there are way too many spiders to take on, and retreat is in order. At this time I will let the party know that there is a nearby tower that looks easily defensible. If the party retreats there, they will find that it is inhabited by "Tamasic Men". Local beliefs say that people livings "sinful" lives will be reborn as lesser beings such as these, a mixture of human and beast. Tamasic humans are therefore shuned and live in isolation of greater society (such as in ruins). These particular Tamasic Men have the wings of butterflies and are very weak fliers. They are also cowardly and will feebly protest when the PCs burst into their tower.

At this point the PCs will presumably barricade the entrance and to the roof to use missile attacks etc vs the spiders, who are climbing the walls. The Tamasic Men will contribute to the defense ineffectively. As the situation becomes desperate, the Tamasic Men will make a run for it, launching themselves from the rooftop of the tower to fly away. However, they are unable to maintain altitude and slowly sink towards the ground. The spiders, seeing this, abandon the tower assault and rush after them, intercepting the Tamasic men and devouring them as the PCs watch from the top of the tower. At this point, the PCs would probably get the hell out of there.

So two questions:

1: Is this a good idea? I think it's fairly dramatic, but it suffers from the fact that the PCs can't really influence the events, unless their defense of the tower is so fierce and effective that the spiders are driven off. I'm not a big fan of railroading.

2: Is there any advice for this generic "defense vs the horde" scenario? I know that in 5e being outnumbered is bad, worse than previous editions, so I welcome input on that aspect too.

 

[ammulder]

The players will instantly realized that there are way too many spiders to take on, and retreat is in order.

Ha ha ha ha ha. If you make this assumption, it is almost certain not to be true.

At this time I will let the party know that there is a nearby tower that looks easily defensible.

Again with that assumption thing. Surely in a part of the city overgrown with jungle and filled with ruins, there will be more than one place to go. Are the players necessarily going to go to a tower just because you say it exists? Especially if you say it's already occupied?

At this point the PCs will presumably barricade the entrance and to the roof to use missile attacks etc vs the spiders, who are climbing the walls. The Tamasic Men will contribute to the defense ineffectively.

All kinds of questions here. If they're in ruins, can't they drop enough rocks to seriously mess up the spiders? And if the spiders just needed to invade the tower to get an all-you-can-eat-Tamasic-Men-buffet, why haven't they done so before now? Is there no way to secure the tower, only to flee? Even with whatever magic the party has at their disposal?

As the situation becomes desperate, the Tamasic Men will make a run for it...

Well, you clearly have a vision for how this could play out, but I would worry more about other ways it could go than whether some particular scenario you've envisioned is, whatever, fair or dramatic. It's good to have details and options like this in your pocket, but unless you really are railroading the players, you might want to have some backup plans ready too.

 

[Bitbrain]

Reply to Opening Post.
It might be a good encounter, but don't expect it to go exactly like this.

in one Pathfinder session, my DM had planned out this whole underground riverboat chase scene, which was obviously supposed to end with us all being captured by Drow.
unfortunately, I was carrying around a barrel of oil (which I'd gotten hold of like ten sessions before) and simply chucked it into the boat full of pursuing dark elves. The wizard fired off a spell, and the Drow went up in smoke.
The DM threw his notes aside and did the remainder of the campaign by the seat of his pants

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I like it. As long as you don't over saturate your campaign with them, dramatic (and dangerous) set piece encounters like this can be exciting to play. I like how the first small encounter you included is a nice foreshadow/warning of what is to come and should make the reveal feel less of a "gotcha" type situation. It will only feel railroady if you force them to take the bait and force them down the "correct" solution. Simply describe the environment and the situation and let the PCs decide what to do. If I were you I might make a small change by describing the tower being visible before the ambush happens. That way, when it happens and if the PCs decide to take cover in it, it will feel more like their own idea and cleverness rather than presenting the solution to the problem.

I think the key to running this is to be flexible to what the players want to do. There is a chance they will try other solutions and you should hear them out and be a fair DM. In other words, don't force them to make certain decisions, but don't pull any punches if what they decide on is risky.

As for ending the scenario it seems you don't have a rigid plan. If you don't want to play out the PCs fighting 100 spiders over 50 rounds of combat it will help to have an exit strategy. If you're players are the type to try to make checks to learn about their foes you could feed them information along the lines of "spiders fear fire" which will get them thinking. From there they could try to walk through the hoard carrying torches, trying to intimidate the spiders to not get too close (which would make for a very tense walk), or they try to set the tower on fire to send the spiders fleeing in terror.

You could also have something occur after a set amount of time that ends the encounter. Perhaps after spending an hour in the tower some top predator comes along and drives the spiders off, but leaves the PCs with a new challenge (but a single enemy challenge which is more manageable to run).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Is this a good encounter?

You'll know for sure after you've run it. Never be afraid to tweak an encounter as it unfolds.

1: Is this a good idea? I think it's fairly dramatic, but it suffers from the fact that the PCs can't really influence the events, unless their defense of the tower is so fierce and effective that the spiders are driven off. I'm not a big fan of railroading.

In some sense, they never really can, so the key is to create the impression that they have. Have the NPCs flee in response to something a PC does (or fails to do) or says, for instance.

2: Is there any advice for this generic "defense vs the horde" scenario? I know that in 5e being outnumbered is bad, worse than previous editions, so I welcome input on that aspect too.

With a highly defensible fortification against a horde of melee monsters it shouldn't be too hard - they'll only be attacked by a few at a time, unless they're completely overwhelmed by waves of them and thus lose the benefit of the fortification. If they can retreat into tunnels, chambers or staircases, the advantage of numbers can continue to be minimized...

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

My question would be – what happens if the PCs don’t retreat, or don’t go to the tower, or don’t barricade the door? I presume you know how your group generally reacts, but it’s always dangerous to plan an adventure based around a series of outcomes that may or may not happen. It might be better to plan the adventure to account for multiple paths, and adjust based on the PCs actions.

And if you’re planning on throwing overwhelming odds at them, I would suggest having a plan if they don’t do the thing (retreating). Maybe they end up cocooned for later, and have to get their gear and escape. Or the weight of the spiders in one pace causes a collapse, temporarily separating them from the spiders.

As for the Tamasic Men, have they encountered their kind before? If you’re planning on staging their grisly demise to develop pathos, I’d advise giving the PCs more of a reason to care. Maybe they’re the last of their kind, or are trying to carry their chrysalis-bound young to safety.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

1: Is this a good idea? I think it's fairly dramatic, but it suffers from the fact that the PCs can't really influence the events, unless their defense of the tower is so fierce and effective that the spiders are driven off. I'm not a big fan of railroading.

If the PCs can't really influence events, you need to understand why you're creating this encounter in the first place. If it's to introduce some new ideas (Tamasic Men) and create some backstory for later events, consider either:

(1) Giving players some kind of a clue about how things are supposed to unfold. Could be a dream in which they are chased by spiders, flee to a tower, and eventually drive the spiders off. Could even be hints at the metagame level to the players about "don't take this next thing too seriously". OR

(2) Skip over the encounter entirely and tell the players, "This is what happened yesterday."

If on the other hand you want it to be an actual encounter encounter where the players' actions are crucial, well, just be prepared for it to be tough. Some players like tough challenges. Yes, being outnumbered is potentially hard for the player characters, but that's all the more reason to enjoy such encounters. Outnumbering the enemy is like beating up on a little kid. Being outnumbered is like Horatio At the Bridge or the Charge of the Light Brigade. Of such events legends are born.

Be prepared for what happens if they save the Tamasic Men. Tragedy is fine, comedy is fine, reward is fine, pathos and additional requests ("save us some more, great heroes!") are fine. Just make sure it's not anticlimactic.

 

[Ancalagon]

A lot of good comments so far.

I will reply in full later today, but a specific point about the "purpose" of this encounter:

It is not tied to the larger plot. The party is looking for a specific ruin but only haven approximate location. As they wander into this portion of the Old City, they run into various trouble, challenges and discoveries. This is one of them.

It does serve to illustrate the flavor of the area (ruins filled with monsters and refugees) but that is it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A lot of good comments so far.

I will reply in full later today, but a specific point about the "purpose" of this encounter:

It is not tied to the larger plot. The party is looking for a specific ruin but only haven approximate location. As they wander into this portion of the Old City, they run into various trouble, challenges and discoveries. This is one of them.

It does serve to illustrate the flavor of the area (ruins filled with monsters and refugees) but that is it.

In that case, I think it's fine. The encounter is essentially:

(1) Area filled with tons of spiders;
(2) Defensible bastion with weak and cowardly allies who will flee (and die) if given the opportunity.

Sounds fine to me.

RE: defense against the horde, that's all on the players, but obviously chokepoints are pretty key. If the players can find a spot that limits the number of spiders that can attack at any one time (ideally just one), then one PC can hold the doorway and focus on defense (Dodge, etc.) while other PCs pour on the ranged attacks. Alternatively, kite the spiders to death from horseback or via Expeditious Retreat/Cunning Action. Also, caltrops and flaming oil are nice.

 

[the_redbeard]

The party will

later on they will

The players will

they will

At this point the PCs will

At this point, the PCs would probably

I can't possibly answer because my DMing philosophy is completely counter to yours. I feel it is my job to present compelling problems to the players and leave it to them to figure out their own solutions. I DM to find out what happens, not to script it.

I can tell you that as a player, the absolute thing I most hate is when I feel my choices don't matter.