IS this a viable and balanced Level 9 spell

[Belzbet]

Conjuration (light)
Level: Sorc/Wiz9, Clr9, Dru9
Component: V,S,M
Casting Time: Standard
Range : Long (or medium)
Target/Area: One Creature
Duration: Instant
Save: None (special)
SR: None

The target creature takes 1d8 damage per caster level (max 20d8). Undead take d12 instead of d8.

Mainly I am considering a 9th level spell that targets one creature but has no save and no SR (the d8 is optional). Also, the spell shouldnt be of any specific energy type (not fire or cold, so resistance or immunity doesnt apply).
This spell is light so creatures immune to light spells(like a prismatic dragon) would resist this spell, we could make it divine damage but then it wouldnt make sense that it is available to wizards.

Is that balanced? Is there an equivalent spell anywhere?Consider the metamagic feat enhance spell and epic play.

 

[Empath Negative]

This is unbalanced and you know it. Any spell that deals damage allows a safe, a resist, or a touch attack (or any i can think of) much less a spell thats averages 160 dmg vs. Undead at lvl 20 allowing you to one shot an epic lvl demilich with impunity.

 

[Belzbet]

This is unbalanced and you know it. Any spell that deals damage allows a safe, a resist, or a touch attack (or any i can think of) much less a spell thats averages 160 dmg vs. Undead at lvl 20 allowing you to one shot an epic lvl demilich with impunity.

What if we added a touch attack requirement (or SR or both)? I forgot about the touch initially this was what I had in mind. Also the undead clause is not really what I had i mind it just goes with the light spell flavor.

What about this: Just an attack to one creature with no save and SR applies (no extra to undead), is that unbalanced (if we add the touch requirment we could find spells that do the smae as this one like polar ray).

 

[Greyfeld]

Drop the D8 and D12 to D6 and D8, make it a ranged touch attack, then add either SR or a save (not both). That'll bring it in line with Polar Ray, which is a level 8 spell.

If you make it a touch-range spell, you can probably bump the damage up a little more.

 

[Dandu]

Are you balancing this spell with regard to Gate, Time Stop, Astral Projection, and Shapechange? If so, it is incredibly underpowered.

Are you balancing with regard to Meteor Swarm? Then you're probably ok.

I personally wouldn't ever use the spell you made, but maybe that's just me. Yeah, you might be able to one shot an epic demilich... assuming he was an idiot and had no defenses up. Something I doubt an Int 39 character would do.

Also, they have:

Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

 

[Greyfeld]

Are you balancing this spell with regard to Gate, Time Stop, Astral Projection, and Shapechange? If so, it is incredibly underpowered.

Are you balancing with regard to Meteor Swarm? Then you're probably ok.

I personally wouldn't ever use the spell you made, but maybe that's just me. Yeah, you might be able to one shot an epic demilich... assuming he was an idiot and had no defenses up. Something I doubt an Int 39 character would do.

Also, they have:

Meteor Swarm maxes out at 32d6 damage to any single target, but requires 4 successful ranged touch attacks and 4 failed reflex saves (in addition to overcoming SR) to deal that damage. The area damage is 240% of Fireball, but again, 4 saving throws.

The point is that if a spell is going to do a huge chunk of damage, it's got to have a lot of rolls attached to it. The distinct lack of rolls on this spell means that the damage gets a major nerf.

It should be noted that trying to say this is underpowered because save-or-die spells exist is a misleading argument.

 

[Dandu]

Meteor Swarm maxes out at 32d6 damage to any single target, but requires 4 successful ranged touch attacks and 4 failed reflex saves (in addition to overcoming SR) to deal that damage. The area damage is 240% of Fireball, but again, 4 saving throws.

If you make the ranged touch attacks, the target doesn't get to make reflex saves. But other than that, correct.

The point is that if a spell is going to do a huge chunk of damage, it's got to have a lot of rolls attached to it. The distinct lack of rolls on this spell means that the damage gets a major nerf.

Damage gets a major buff, you mean?

Considering that most damage dealing spells suck (see: Meteor Swarm) I view the lack of rolls as a good thing.

It should be noted that trying to say this is underpowered because save-or-die spells exist is a misleading argument.

Have I... listed any save or die spells?

 

[Empirate]

Meteor Swarm shouldn't really be your point of comparison. Even creatures who have it as a spell-like (like Balors) usually have better things to use their precious standard actions on. MS is an incredibly useless spell at the level you get it, and can't hold a candle to what else is possible with a 9th level slot. Don't compare to Meteor Swarm, compare to spells one might actually use in a 9th level slot. Dandu listed the important ones. I'll even add Shades (for specialist Wizards), Foresight, Disjunction, and Wail of the Banshee, all of which might justify their place in a spellbook (or even on a Sorcerer's spells known list).

That said, irresistible damage to a single creature might be a useful thing to do with a high-level spell - some situations just call for whoever is next in initiative to do a bunch of damage. Some 90 points of damage (undead: 130), single target, don't sound unbalancing to me.

This is still a niche spell, not a "must memorize every day" spell. When you're fighting a Lich or Vampire, you might consider it. But you might also consider Shapechanging into a Planetar and just wrecking them yourself, or Gateing in a Solar to do the job for you, or Disjoining all their magic to make a takedown EZ, or whatever.

 

[Empath Negative]

Meteor Swarm shouldn't really be your point of comparison. Even creatures who have it as a spell-like (like Balors) usually have better things to use their precious standard actions on. MS is an incredibly useless spell at the level you get it, and can't hold a candle to what else is possible with a 9th level slot. Don't compare to Meteor Swarm, compare to spells one might actually use in a 9th level slot. Dandu listed the important ones. I'll even add Shades (for specialist Wizards), Foresight, Disjunction, and Wail of the Banshee, all of which might justify their place in a spellbook (or even on a Sorcerer's spells known list).

That said, irresistible damage to a single creature might be a useful thing to do with a high-level spell - some situations just call for whoever is next in initiative to do a bunch of damage. Some 90 points of damage (undead: 130), single target, don't sound unbalancing to me.

This is still a niche spell, not a "must memorize every day" spell. When you're fighting a Lich or Vampire, you might consider it. But you might also consider Shapechanging into a Planetar and just wrecking them yourself, or Gateing in a Solar to do the job for you, or Disjoining all their magic to make a takedown EZ, or whatever.

And here is the argument that destroys the game.


Every single time a new supplement comes out we "rebalance" any new spell against the most powerful spell in that or any previous supplement.

Dandu lists some of the most powerful spells in the game and says "balance against these".... end result? Another ridiculously powerful and potentially broken spell. The Player Equivalent of "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies".

There are certain general rules set out for magic, one of which usually being that if it can be cast it's possible to be avoided. If it doesn't have a save it has a touch attack, if it doesn't have a touch attack it allows resistance and so forth.

But consistently "rebalancing" the spells against the most powerful spells ever to come before it just causes endless power creep.

 

[Sekhmet]

Most single-target damage spells are 1d6/caster level. For a non-epic spell, I'd consider dropping it to 1d6 with 1d8/undead, and to make it strictly better than Polar Ray, I'd make it have no maximum caster level variable.
Likewise, I'd give it a touch attack requirement, and a Reflex save requirement or Spell Res.

Reflex because it is generally the worst to use rays/touch attacks on anyway, or Spell Res because you are generally not going to use a ray/touch on a creature with Spell Res anyway. These are largely superficial.

I would also add in a Chromatic effect, which would allow you to choose the element at the time of casting, rather than "Holy".