Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[MarkB]

I'd like to point out that the scenario never mentions a BBEG, in any form. Even if there is a BBEG, nothing in the scenario suggests that he had/has anything to do with the lever or secret door.

If there is a dungeon to clear out and a McGuffin to be recovered, a BBEG is all-but-implicit. And since Disintegrate traps do not grow naturally upon untended levers in dungeons (goodness knows how Gygax missed that one), somebody must have put it there.

That being the case, if that somebody wasn't already the BBEG, then by turning the party monk to gravel they've just promoted themselves to the position.


And now, I'm very curious to know:

When you posted this scenario, did you have any particular opinion as to whether it was fair or unfair?

Has the subsequent discussion done anything to alter your view?

Has the discussion gone the way you thought it would, and has it been useful to you?

 

[Bagpuss]

"Is there no middle ground? A deadly trap that can be circumvented."

To be circumvented you need to know it's there, that would be what a rogue's search check is for, or other clues that the lever is trapped.

If the rogue had detected the trap, but said it looked too tricky for him to disarm and likely deadly, then even with the boosted save DC, I would have considered this a fair challenge, even a fun one.

There were no in game clues that this was a trap in this case.

Unless of course Disintegrate traps DO actually grow naturally upon untended levers in dungeons in your campaign world and the PC's are aware of this?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I see two concepts here that I find puzzling:

1 – No trap should ever be deadly.

2 – If a trap is deadly, it should absolutely be so, with no way to “outsmart” it.

Is there no middle ground? A deadly trap that can be circumvented.

1 - Not true. Traps can be deadly. They should be 1) detectable 2) savable. This was neither.

2 - Not true. Traps can be bypassed by other methods. You have to know they're there to do that, though.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Here, I'll give an example of a destruction trap I used recently.

The PCs were in a tower controlled by an illithid and a negoi working together. They were brain, slave, and soul traders. They had a treasure vault where they kept the money they made through these lucrative transactions. The door leading to the room was behind an illusionary wall and had a reseting destruction trap on it.

The trap, however, had a way to bypass it. Each of the two inhabitants, the illithid and the negoi, had an Amulet of Nondetection. The door to the room also had two indentions in the same strange shape that these amulets were in, and putting the amulets in the indentions disabled the trap. Thus, both of them together were required to get inside, since neither trusted the other. It made perfect logical sense and it was a way for the PCs to think their way past the trap, regardless of rolls.

Of course, the trap was Searchable and Disarmable as well, and the PCs were 10th level. It was a difficult trap for them, but it wasn't too far out there. They had multiple ways to get by, and being that it was a door behind an illusionary wall and in a deep part of the dungeon, it was an obvious place for a trap.

Unfortunately, when they discovered it, they had killed the illithid but not the negoi. They also failed to discover the trap with Search (they were in a hurry and didn't take 20). I told them that the amulet they had appeared like it would fit in one of the two indentions. They didn't put 2 and 2 together, so they opened it, setting off the trap. The Fighter who opened it made the save, took 10d6 damage, and didn't die. Trap bypassed, but they were not well off after that damage for the rest of the session.


See the difference between how I approached this and the lever?

EDIT: As a side note, they set off another trap later that ended up with one guy turned to stone and one with insanity. It was the classic "item on a pedistal" and they didn't even look for traps. That was fair as well, in my book, since most PCs made their saves and they were going to search for traps (the gnome just ran up and grabbed it for some reason).

 

[drothgery]

By the way, when I read the scenario, I didn't assume the lever opened the door. How come people think this?

There was nothing else in the room that looked like it could open the door.

Here's the original setup again

You’ve cleared out the dungeon and found the McGuffin you were seeking. Then you come to a room located in the back corner of the dungeon. In the room is only a large lever sticking up out of the floor. You search the room and find a secret door in one wall. You can’t find a way to open the door. The rogue searches the door and lever for traps, and finds none. The monk pulls the lever. He has to make a saving throw – he rolls a 19 on the die, adds in his mods, and fails the save. He turns into a pile of fine dust on the floor.

So the salient points are
1 - There's a lever in the room.
2 - A search of the room found a secret door, and no other possible means of opening it beyond the lever.
3 - A search of the door and the lever by a rogue for traps revealed no traps (we'll assume that the rogue took 20, and has search maxed out; competent trapfinding rogues do this; also note that the search skill, when used by characters with trapfinding, does reveal magic traps)
4 - Given no other way to open the door, the monk (who presumably has the best all-around saves in the party, and evasion) pulls the lever, and has to make a saving throw. He rolls a natural 19, and dies, turned into dust (i.e. can't be revived with anything short of Resurection, and possibly not without True Resurection).

It's not fair because it's an apparently undiscoverable trap (searching for traps revealed no traps) that's also an impossible-to-make save-or-die trap (monk failed by rolling a 19) on the only apparent means of opening a secret door (and adventurers will always try and open secret doors). The PCs took reasonable percautions; they had the rogue search for traps, and had the character most likely to make his saves pull the lever. And absolute best case, they're a high level party, so the cost (in time, money, and high level spell slots) to revive the dead monk is only expensive instead of crippling.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Unless of course Disintegrate traps DO actually grow naturally upon untended levers in dungeons in your campaign world and the PC's are aware of this?

I run a fantasy campaign; some suspension of disbelief is necessary. Players have to be able to believe in five-ton dragons that fly on batlike wings and breathe fire, clerics that raise people from the dead, pointy-eared elves that live for millenia, and levers with disintegrate traps on them.

Other DMs may do things differently.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The PCs took reasonable percautions; they had the rogue search for traps, and had the character most likely to make his saves pull the lever.

To you these are reasonable precautions; to other people, they're the equivalent of putting your hard hat on before stepping into the door marked "Extreme danger."

 

[Treebore]

I run a fantasy campaign; some suspension of disbelief is necessary. Players have to be able to believe in five-ton dragons that fly on batlike wings and breathe fire, clerics that raise people from the dead, pointy-eared elves that live for millenia, and levers with disintegrate traps on them.

Other DMs may do things differently.

I think I play the same kind of D&D you do.

 

[Bagpuss]

Levers have disintergate traps in my game, but normally I at least throw the characters a bone, like it is possible to detect, or there is some clue like a pile of dust with maybe a few surviving bones next to it, etc.

This one there is no in game reason for a character (not a player) to think there is a trap on the lever. Unless every lever in the dungeon has been trapped perviously or some other reason that isn't availble from the discription provided at the start.

With out some in character reason to think there is a trap why should they take any precautions and try and out smart it?

Are you seriously suggesting that PC's should pull every door in the dungeon open at the end of a 50ft length of rope or burn through scrolls of Telekinesis to pull every lever and open every door? Should they levitate down every corridor just incase the next 5ft has an undetectable trap?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I see two concepts here that I find puzzling:

1 – No trap should ever be deadly.

2 – If a trap is deadly, it should absolutely be so, with no way to “outsmart” it.

Is there no middle ground? A deadly trap that can be circumvented.

I don't think anyone is arguing the first or the second point, nor do I think the trap in the OP falls into the "middle ground" category. It was a deadly trap with no way to outsmart it other than for the player to be prescient, which is an unreasonable burden to place on most players, I'd say.