Is this fair? -- your personal opinion
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
With what we have been told, this sounds fair. I have a couple of questions that may change my opinion though:
What was the save DC for the Monk?
Why didn't the rogue find the trap? (Did he roll low and miss the DC or was the trap "technically" not part of the lever?)
Just because the rogue didn't see the trap didn't mean it wasn't there. The monk dying to a missed trap is a bad end but a fair one. The monk dying to a trap that wasn't found because the DM split hairs about the search (it wasn't the lever, it was a pressure plate in the floor around the lever) or because their really wasn't a save DC (it was 10,456,786 because the DM ate a bag egg that morning) then it wasn't fair.
But the story, as it is told so far, sounds fair.
What was the save DC for the Monk?
Why didn't the rogue find the trap? (Did he roll low and miss the DC or was the trap "technically" not part of the lever?)
Just because the rogue didn't see the trap didn't mean it wasn't there. The monk dying to a missed trap is a bad end but a fair one. The monk dying to a trap that wasn't found because the DM split hairs about the search (it wasn't the lever, it was a pressure plate in the floor around the lever) or because their really wasn't a save DC (it was 10,456,786 because the DM ate a bag egg that morning) then it wasn't fair.
But the story, as it is told so far, sounds fair.
MarkB
Legend
The situation is too setting-dependent. Yes, as players, we know darn well that there's a good chance the lever is trapped, but in the situation as presented, is there any reason other than metagaming why this would be so?
Levers are designed to be pulled to achieve some function. The only reason to trap the lever (as opposed to, say, a flagstone in front of the hidden door) is as a deliberately-sadistic "gotcha" trap.
Now, many BBEGs may indeed be sadistic and favour such traps. If there's reason for the characters to think they're up against such a being as they explore the dungeon, then the trap is not unfair, it's the sort of thing they should be expecting.
If, however, they don't have prior reason to expect such a thing, making the first one they encounter impossibly powerful is unfair.
And in response to the "life isn't fair" comments: D&D isn't life, nor is it some kind of lesson in the world's inherent unfriendliness. It's a game, played for fun, and as such it should meet some standards of reasonable fairness.
Levers are designed to be pulled to achieve some function. The only reason to trap the lever (as opposed to, say, a flagstone in front of the hidden door) is as a deliberately-sadistic "gotcha" trap.
Now, many BBEGs may indeed be sadistic and favour such traps. If there's reason for the characters to think they're up against such a being as they explore the dungeon, then the trap is not unfair, it's the sort of thing they should be expecting.
If, however, they don't have prior reason to expect such a thing, making the first one they encounter impossibly powerful is unfair.
And in response to the "life isn't fair" comments: D&D isn't life, nor is it some kind of lesson in the world's inherent unfriendliness. It's a game, played for fun, and as such it should meet some standards of reasonable fairness.
ThirdWizard
First Post
werk said:
I can see it now... every time the BBEG wanted to go through the door, he pulled out his LONG rope.
Or if it doesn't open the door, the BBEG just felt like paying exhorbant amounts for an extremely powerful death trap to be placed on a lever in the event of his death as a way to get his killers afterward?
It's not fair because it makes no sense.
werk
First Post
ThirdWizard said:I can see it now... every time the BBEG wanted to go through the door, he pulled out his LONG rope.
Or if it doesn't open the door, the BBEG just felt like paying exhorbant amounts for an extremely powerful death trap to be placed on a lever in the event of his death as a way to get his killers afterward?
It's not fair because it makes no sense.
No, no, no. The trap doesn't hurt the BBEG, he can pull his lever all day and night, back and forth, up and down, and never get dusty.
The point is that it is a trap designed to see if a player is foolish enough to run up and grab it. If they do pretty much anything to avoid the OBVIOUS trap that doesn't test positive as a trap they will be fine. Someone else above mentioned several other ways to do it...any should work.
The point is, if the DM in UNFAIR, nothing you can do will save you and have the desried result.
If he is FAIR, anything you do to avoid grabbing and pulling it will work.
This is really a test of sense. Does the character act in accordance with what he should know (it's probably trapped but he can't figure it out), or does he act according to what the player knows (it's not trapped and/or I should be able to find/disarm/or save against any level appropriate traps). Play the character, not the player playing the character.
ThirdWizard
First Post
You do seem to be making a lot of inferrances that I'm not making. A lot of metagaming going on from my perspective as well.
Just out of curiosity, if the Player had tied a 100' rope to it, gone around a few corners outside of the room, and pulled the lever, only to have to make the save or dust, would it still be fair?
Just out of curiosity, if the Player had tied a 100' rope to it, gone around a few corners outside of the room, and pulled the lever, only to have to make the save or dust, would it still be fair?
painandgreed
First Post
ThirdWizard said:I can see it now... every time the BBEG wanted to go through the door, he pulled out his LONG rope.
Or if it doesn't open the door, the BBEG just felt like paying exhorbant amounts for an extremely powerful death trap to be placed on a lever in the event of his death as a way to get his killers afterward?
It's not fair because it makes no sense.
Could be that the BBEG is undead and pulling the lever sets off a Fortitude save which he is immune to. I've used traps like that before in dungeons. Something critical or a bottleneck that is in an environment adverse to all but the person who put it there. Water based creatures putting everything under water. Undead using poison gas or disease filled rooms. Fire based creatures activating fire traps. Etc. Etc. Etc. If nobody but one person is supposed to go through something, it makes perfect sence to make it so that it is adverse to most everybody except that one person.
Once agian, we do not have enough informtion to tell if it makes sence or not.
werk
First Post
Yeah...ThirdWizard said:
LOL, of course not! That's the point, if there is NO WAY to avoid getting dusted and work the lever, then it's UNFAIR.ThirdWizard said:
If it is easily avoided, then no clues are needed.
If it is hard to avoid, then some clues should be dropped.
I still think it's a test whether they are playing the character or the player. The character wouldn't know that 'if there was a trap, I would have found it or I can make the save', he just knows that he needs to pull the lever to hopefully open the door, and that it is probably a set-up because he has no other choice of action.
Yeah, if there's no possible way to avoid the trap and still work the lever, then it's unfair.
