Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[Nightfall]

Shannagins! Shannagins! Shannagins!

 

[Ourph]

Sure.

You asserted the fact that PCs were Searching at all or that they chose a Monk to pull the lever as supporting your position that they should have been more suspicious.

Actually, you were missing the point of my post.

I asserted that those facts indicate that the PCs were already suspicious and that other people's assertions that there was no reason to be suspicious are off-point, because a priori the PCs in this scenario are suspicious because they are stated to be so in the OP.

I then went on to state that the PCs did a poor job of ascertaining whether their suspicions were correct because they relied on a single action by a single character and assumed that the inconclusive results of that action were actually conclusively negative.

My counterargument is that there were other sound reasons to do exactly those, even if we subtract the lever-as-trap from the scenario entirely (for the sake of argument). Therefore the Searching and choice of a Monk is non-evidence for your position.

First, the OP specifically says the Rogue was searching the secret door and the lever for traps. Therefore it's an a priori condition, established in the opening post, that the PCs suspect the lever could be trapped. Second, the idea that there could be other dangerous things that might result from pulling the lever besides a direct trap seems to be even more of an argument for examining the lever further (i.e. - expending more resources) before making the decision to pull it, which seems to support my point that the PCs did a poor job of exploring their suspicions, not nullify it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That's not necessarily true. As you say, the way DCs relate to CR is only a guideline. If the trap has a very high Search DC and a very high Save DC but is easily detectable and easily defeatable by means other than rolling a d20 then it shouldn't necessarily have a high CR. If detection and defeat of the trap is possible with low level magic (Detect Magic, Augury) or with use of another skill (Knowledge: History, Bardic Knowledge) or through taking simple actions (reading a sign saying "Don't pull the lever" written on the wall in the next room) then it's reasonable for the CR to be low even though the save DCs are high. Those are called "circumstantial modifiers" and the rulebooks regularly encourage DMs to use them at their discretion when applying the normal guidelines.

I agree, to a point. But beyond that point this leaps off into the realm of pure speculation.

You could say that if you were DM "this trap is nasty, but Augury, a summoned monster, or a rope would have helped here so it is not so bad if the PCs are careful".

And I could say that if I were DM "a trap this nasty always means business, so low level divinations, most summoned monsters, and rope will afford zero protections, and I am placing this on a doorknob to maximize the chances of catching someone because that is how my BBEGs think".

Who is right? Neither of us. Both of us. Who cares? Shannagins!

 

[Nightfall]

Thank you!!! You finally get my point Ridley!

Let's call Shannagins! and get this thread to die finally...

 

[Someone]

It is entirely possible that the trap was constructed long ago by other inhabitants of the dungeon and that the very reason the trap is located in an out-of-the-way, unused portion of the dungeon is because the current inhabitants know about the trap, do not know how to defeat it, haven't figured out a way to open the secret door without turning to dust and simply avoid that area because it is very dangerous.

OK. After losing several minions to the disintegrating trap, and unfortunately not having a rope (Ye olde Rope Shoppe was too far away), they decided to carefully sweep the dust of their former companions and clean the charred imprints of their hands on the lever. After that, they did not put any danger mark on the wall. Won´t anyone think of the children!?

In fact, I would argue that since the MacGuffin WAS NOT kept behind this very effective, very expensive trapped area that the current inhabitants (owners of said MacGuffin) were in exactly the position I describe.

You mean short of a rope?

If they created the trap they should have been using this area. The fact that the area is unused and the important objects were on the PC's side of the secret door indicates the current occupants were leaving this area alone. This is yet another reason for the PCs to be suspicious.

I concede that I assumed the fact that the dungeon owners either built the trap or knew, maybe by trial and error, how to bypass it and thus could have been used to protect the McGuffin.

You however, have to propose the existence of the builder and the rope impaired dungeon squatters; that the current inhabitants found no way either to figure out how to the trap works, or to break down the secret door -or even that they found it, despite he existence of the lever; that they just left that lethal danger there, doing nothing to prevent any possible accident, and also that there´s no evidence of the trap´s deadly effects or existence despite the fact that the lever has been operated. I consider my assumption far more likely.

 

[Nightfall]

Shannagins!

 

[Abraxas]

Shannagins!

It doesn't work if you don't spell it correctly.

 

[Nightfall]

So far it's not hurting anything either.

Shannagins!

 

[Raven Crowking]

The difference between the lever and the mousetrap is that you don´t put the mousetrap on the roof and put a large, nontrapped cheese in the kitchen. The reason the trap lever is unfair is because it exist to punish players who pull levers.

So, let me see if I understand.

First, the idea was that the trap was unfair because it was unreasonable to assume that it was a trap. Pretty well answered.

Second, traps shouldn't be levers and you shouldn't have to do something to interact with the trap. Pretty well answered.

Now, the trap is unfair because it is in the wrong room, or isn't a doorknob.

 

[Lanefan]

Now, the trap is unfair because it is in the wrong room, or isn't a doorknob.

No, it's unfair because it was designed and built by a doorknob, and that's why it's in the wrong room.

Lanefan