Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[Raven Crowking]

Nope. Your oppinion is obviously biased by your previous experiences in gaming. I see no way to debate with you if you will not agree with me on this point.

(A) That the lever is potentially dangerous is based upon a rational train of thought that only requires real-world considerations to be taken into account. Does this require me to take play style into account? If so, how?

(B) The (exhaustive) discussion of the nature of traps requires only real-world considerations to be taken into account. Does this require me to take play style into account? If so, how?

(C) That the lever can be trapped, and that the trap might not be found by our particular rogue Taking 20, are both inherent assumptions of the Core Rules, requiring no adjudication of play style to be true. Does this require me to take play style into account? If so, how?

(D) While Search/Disable are presented in the Core Rules, and may even be presented in the Core Rules as "the main methods of adventurers to bypass traps" they are certainly not presented as the only means, nor are they presented as infallible. In fact, spells like find traps explicitly exist for just this purpose. Does this require me to take play style into account? If so, how?

 

[ThirdWizard]

RC, this is substantially simpler than you are making it out to be. The DM has introduced a trap that he knows the PCs cannot detect with Search and that will kill any PC who pulls it unless they roll a 20 on a saving throw and has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous.

The only way to consider this fair is if you expect PCs to always check every object that they think might be traped through multiple means before interacting with them. This is a playstyle decision, and one I do not believe to be common. If you think that the lever is obviously trapped moreso than other objects which the PCs have previously trusted Search checks on, then that is also a playstyle decision.

Therefore: unfair.

 

[Raven Crowking]

ThirdWizard, having given it some additional thought, I agree that there is one place where my opinion obviously biased by my previous experiences in gaming:

I take it as a given that an in-game situation is fair unless demonstrably otherwise. Moreover, as a related bias, I believe that any game where I cannot take this as a given is not worth playing.

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

Moreover, as a related bias, I believe that any game where I cannot take this as a given is not worth playing.

Likewise. I just consider this situation being from a game which I would not find worth playing, if this is an accurate sampling of what the game would be like.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, this is substantially simpler than you are making it out to be. The DM has introduced a trap that he knows the PCs cannot detect with Search and that will kill any PC who pulls it unless they roll a 20 on a saving throw and has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous.

If I agreed with all the foregoing assumptions, I would agree with you that this was unfair. However, it requires all of those assumptions to be true for the trap to be unfair. If any one of those assumptions is untrue, then the trap is fair. The assumption that the DM "has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous" is refutable, and has been refuted ad infinitum ad nauseum.

If there is an error in my refutation (and not that you simply do not like the conclusions drawn from it) please point it out.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Name one hint.

EDIT: Perhaps my definition of "hint" is different than yours...

 

[Raven Crowking]

Likewise. I just consider this situation being from a game which I would not find worth playing, if this is an accurate sampling of what the game would be like.

We're cross-posting here.

I agree that this is not the kind of trap I would particularly use (I think I said that somewhere upthread as well), but, again, my preferences have nothing to do with whether or not the encounter is fair.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Name one hint.

EDIT: Perhaps my definition of "hint" is different than yours...

By its very nature, a lever implies that, by changing its position, you cause something to happen. This makes a lever very different from, say, a raised dias, a table, a torch, or a statue. All of those things might do something; it is a far more reasonable (and obvious) assumption that a lever or a switch will do something.

(It might not, of course. It could be a red herring. The mechanism could be broken. However, even if you see no obvious result, it is safe to assume that throwing the switch/lever has had some effect that you should, thereafter, keep your eye out for.)

In the example room, there is a secret door. A secret door implies both a space beyond (although this may not be true; it may be a false secret door leading to a stone wall) and a means to open it (again, this implication may not be true; the secret door could be built in such a way that it has no regular means to open it, especially if it is intended as bait rather than as a door).

In the example room, we have a secret door with no means to open it, and a lever that does something that we do not know. So here we have two objects. One does something, the other needs the means to do something. The easiest solution to the problem is that the one object does the something for the other object. We do not think any further, throw the lever, and roll a saving throw.

But...hold on. Naturally, the lever could do a lot of other things. Moreover, the means to open the secret door might not be in this room. If you were going to the effort to hide a door, would you place the lever in plain sight? Probably not. Logic therefore dictates that the lever probably does not open the secret door. A moment's thought takes us past the simple "throw the lever, and roll a saving throw" result.

By this point, perhaps, the idea that the secret door is bait to cause us to pull the lever might appear. Certainly, we search the lever for traps, Taking 20 to do our best job. We find nothing. That still doesn't mean that pulling the lever is a good idea. It is possible to make a trap that we cannot find. After all, the DC has to be no more than 1 beyond our maximum result, and we know as a fact that this is possible.

So, what now?

We have the McGuffin. We could just leave. If we are on a tight schedule, this is probably the best option.

We could cast a simple divination spell to determine whether or not throwing the lever is a good idea. The more we think about this, the better it sounds....even if it means having to rest up first, so long as we are not on a tight schedule. If we have the time for it, this is the best option.

If we don't have access to the best divination spells for the job, we could possibly use detect magic. That would at least give us some more information. Not a bad option. It might, in fact, give us reason to investigate further before doing anything rash.

We could also consider using a summoned creature to do the dirty work.

As a final option, we could just pull the lever. Doing so, after all, might grant the person doing the pulling a wish. Probably not. For all kinds of reasons, this is simply the worst option to take.

RC

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If I agreed with all the foregoing assumptions, I would agree with you that this was unfair. However, it requires all of those assumptions to be true for the trap to be unfair.

And in the absence of the tiniest most minute iota of evidence that any of these assumptions is untrue, the logical conclusion(s) is which of the following?

(1) In my game, it would be fair because of the style of the campaign.
(2) I do not know.
(3) I can imagine it would be unfair in some campaigns.
(4) It is objectively provable that it is fair.

 

[ThirdWizard]

RC, that isn't a hint.

That is a supposition based on your previous experiences playing D&D. Essentially, the lever itself is what you are considering the hint.

A hint would be something more in the room that would make the PCs think that the lever is more than it is. A pile of dust beside it, a warning sign in orcish (which the PCs may or may not be able to read), a bit of rope tied to the lever left there by previous adventurers.

These are hint. The lever is not a hint.