Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[Lanefan]

That is a supposition based on your previous experiences playing D&D. Essentially, the lever itself is what you are considering the hint.

A hint would be something more in the room that would make the PCs think that the lever is more than it is. A pile of dust beside it, a warning sign in orcish (which the PCs may or may not be able to read), a bit of rope tied to the lever left there by previous adventurers.

These are hint. The lever is not a hint.

And if the occupants keep the place clean, the hints disappear. However, one hint might be dust in the slot the lever moves up and down through; if there's lots of dust, that shows the lever never gets used...hmmm, wonder why...

Lanefan

 

[Raven Crowking]

And in the absence of the tiniest most minute iota of evidence that any of these assumptions is untrue, the logical conclusion(s) is which of the following?

(1) In my game, it would be fair because of the style of the campaign.
(2) I do not know.
(3) I can imagine it would be unfair in some campaigns.
(4) It is objectively provable that it is fair.

IF you accept the assumptions are true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is unfair.

IF you do not accept that the assumptions are all true, but do not aver that the assumptions are false, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap may or may not be fair, and that more information is required to make a statement that the trap is fair or unfair.

IF you believe that one or more of the assumptions is not true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is fair.

The assumptions in question are:

(1) The DM has introduced a trap that he knows the PCs cannot detect with Search.

(2) That the trap will kill any PC who activates it unless they roll a 20 on a saving throw.

(3) That the DM has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous.

Do we agree on this much?

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

And if the occupants keep the place clean, the hints disappear. However, one hint might be dust in the slot the lever moves up and down through; if there's lots of dust, that shows the lever never gets used...hmmm, wonder why...

I agree, with one caveat.

The importance of how often the lever is used is going to depend on the dungeon in which it is found. If this is an ancient crypt full of incorporeal undead, then lack of use will mean nothing, but if it is a well kept lair that is currently used by some group then lack of use might be an important clue.

In either case, the Search check would reveal its lack of use. It didn't. Perhaps this is merely an oversight on the case of the OP however.

 

[Abraxas]

You need to play through some old modules - A1-A4, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Lost Temple of Tharizdun, Quest for the Heartstone, White Plume Mtn. - and learn that yes indeed, death *does* wait in the most unlikely of places and for the most unlikely of reasons...and just get used to it.

The lever trap sounds like it could easily have come from any of those adventures, though I suspect that in fact it did not.

Of course in a number of those old adventures there were also random levers (among other things) that rewarded the PC that monkeyed with them.

 

[Someone]

RC, I don´t know to whom are you responding, because your posts are becoming increasigly bizarre and ceratinly have little to do with my posts. I´ll keep som pearls, however:

(2) Mistaking Occam's Razor for proof. Simply because you have a cat, one cannot conclude definitely that your cat drank the milk.

Of course not, and I´m quite surprised you even wrote that. If you can definitely conclude anything you don´t need the Razor, but those rare circumstances are usually related with the world of mathematics. Occam´s Razor usually works in the normal life, however, and we use it lots of times every day.

You conclude that the trap cannot be effective because "The party got the McGuffin!" but again your logic fails on two points:

(1) The assumption that the purpose of the trap was to prevent the party from getting the McGuffin, and

(2) The assumption that, when the lever was pulled, the monk's death was the only thing that happened.

Priceless.

You are also guilty of Argumentum ad hominem, literally "argument directed at the man,"

No I´m not.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, that isn't a hint.

That is a supposition based on your previous experiences playing D&D. Essentially, the lever itself is what you are considering the hint.

A hint would be something more in the room that would make the PCs think that the lever is more than it is. A pile of dust beside it, a warning sign in orcish (which the PCs may or may not be able to read), a bit of rope tied to the lever left there by previous adventurers.

These are hint. The lever is not a hint.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
hint  /hɪnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hint] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an indirect, covert, or helpful suggestion; clue: Give me a hint as to his identity.
2. a very slight or hardly noticeable amount; soupçon: a hint of garlic in the salad dressing.
3. perceived indication or suggestion; note; intimation: a hint of spring in the air.
4. Obsolete. an occasion or opportunity.
–verb (used with object) 5. to give a hint of: gray skies hinting a possible snowfall.
–verb (used without object) 6. to make indirect suggestion or allusion; subtly imply (usually fol. by at): The article hinted at corruption in the mayor's office.

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[Origin: 1595–1605; (n.) orig., opportunity, occasion, appar. var. of obs. hent grasp, act of seizing, deriv. of the v.: to grasp, take, ME henten, OE hentan; (v.) deriv. of the n.]

—Related forms
hinter, noun

—Synonyms 1. allusion, insinuation, innuendo; memorandum, reminder; inkling. 5. imply. Hint, intimate, insinuate, suggest denote the conveying of an idea to the mind indirectly or without full or explicit statement. To hint is to convey an idea covertly or indirectly, but intelligibly: to hint that one would like a certain present; to hint that bits of gossip might be true. To intimate is to give a barely perceptible hint, often with the purpose of influencing action: to intimate that something may be possible. To insinuate is to hint artfully, often at what one would not dare to say directly: to insinuate something against someone's reputation. Suggest denotes particularly recalling something to the mind or starting a new train of thought by means of association of ideas: The name doesn't suggest anything to me.
—Antonyms 5. express, declare.​

I suggest that you are using definition (1) and I am using definition (3), above.

When I examine the assumption, (3) That the DM has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous I am assuming that, if enough intimation exists that the PCs know or should reasonably have known that something is dangerous, perforce this knowledge arises out of "hints".

For example, a bridge over a river "hints" that the river can be crossed. Nothing else is required, because the meaning of the term "bridge" is fairly universal. The implications inherent in an object can be hints. Indeed, all the hints you mentioned are based on the implications inherent in objects. Well, except the warning written in orcish.

Likewise, that a pulling a lever inherently causes something to happen is more than just an inference gained through isolated and special circumstances -- it is inherent in the meaning of the object itself.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, I don´t know to whom are you responding, because your posts are becoming increasigly bizarre and ceratinly have little to do with my posts.

More argumentum ad hominem?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Likewise, that a pulling a lever inherently causes something to happen is more than just an inference gained through isolated and special circumstances -- it is inherent in the meaning of the object itself.

There's about as much indication that a PC will die pulling the lever as walking over a bridge, though.

 

[Raven Crowking]

There's about as much indication that a PC will die pulling the lever as walking over a bridge, though.

Would you agree with Post 572?

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3040113&postcount=572

 

[ThirdWizard]

Would you agree with Post 572?

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3040113&postcount=572

I do.

EDIT: Although I would worry about the saving throw, depending on the abilty of the rogue to disarm it. Most Search checks are the same as the Disarm check, correct? If the rogue will probably kill himself trying to disarm it, that would be an extraneous circumstance in which I would probably call it "unfair."