Is this Paladin's Mount Broken?

[scipio]

13th level paladin wants a griffon for his mount. Fine. A griffon cohort adjustment is +3, thus, if I'm doing this right, the paladin can have the mount starting at 8th level (based on PHB), and the mount would have bonuses at 3 levels less than the paladin. Thus at 13th, the bonus is +4HD, +8 AC, +2 Str, 7 Int. After rolling the stats using the DMG method for monster stats, here it is:

HD 11D10+55
Init: +5
Speed: 40 ft, 90 ft fly (average)
AC: 26 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +12 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+23
Attacks: Bite +19 – 2D6+8 2 Claws +17 1D4+4; pounce (2 rakes – +17/ 1D6+4)
Feats/Abilities: Dark vision, low-light vision, scent, Multiattack, Hover, Fly-by Attack, Power Attack, Improved Speed, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Share spells, Share Saves
Skills - +11 Jump, Listen +7, Spot +11
Abilities: Str. 27 Dex 21 Con 20 Wis 14 Int 7 Cha
Saves: F+18 R+12 W+13 (as the paladin, who has cloak of resistance +4, Cha +3)
Equip: Magical Branding granting magic fang +1 to bite and claws

In short, this thing is a beast, and the paladin riding it isn't bad either (triple damage with charging lance attacks). He is, however, pretty weak by himself on the ground. My question - have we gone wrong somewhere, or does this look correct?

 

[jodyjohnson]

Griffon Mount of Pal 13

Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 11d10+33 (59 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (6 squares), fly 90 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 23 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+20
Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+5) and 2 claws +14 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, rake 1d6+2
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +6 Edit: (using Paladin's base Fort/Will saves Fort +11, Will +7)
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 8 (+1 somewhere for 8 HD)
Skills: Jump +9, Listen +6, Spot +10 (+4 Skill points for HD)
Feats: Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (bite) (One bonus for 9 HD)
Advancement: - None, advancing as Paladin Mount
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)
Griffons are powerful, majestic creatures with the characteristics of both lions and eagles. From nose to tail, an adult griffon can measure as much as 8 feet. Neither males nor females are endowed with a mane. A pair of broad, golden wings emerge from the creature’s back and span 25 feet or more. A griffon weighs about 500 pounds.
A griffon cannot speak, but understands Common.
COMBAT
Griffons prefer to pounce on their prey, either diving to the attack or leaping from above.
Pounce (Ex): If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +8 melee, damage 1d6+2.
Skills: Griffons have a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Spot checks.

Paladin Mount Abilities: Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, Shared Spells, Shared Saves, Improved Movement.
Carrying Capacity: A light load for a griffon is up to 400 pounds; a medium load, 401–800 pounds; and a heavy load, 801–1200 pounds.


The mount can not fly at more than 400 lb load.

I have no idea where all the stat increases came from. He should only have the +1 for 8 HD, and one additional feat for 9 HD.

Did you roll up the stats separately as if it were a cohort? If you did then the Paladin has a Cohort equal to 11 HD + 3 LA which is a 14th level Cohort and not available until 16th. Plus as a cohort he wouldn't advance on the Paladin chart - he'd advance as a character.

 

[scipio]

I have no idea where all the stat increases came from. He should only have the +1 for 8 HD, and one additional feat for 9 HD.

Did you roll up the stats separately as if it were a cohort? If you did then the Paladin has a Cohort equal to 11 HD + 3 LA which is a 14th level Cohort and not available until 16th. Plus as a cohort he wouldn't advance on the Paladin chart - he'd advance as a character.

It would seem that the mistake is in rolling the stats separately, which is what we did. The paladin mount must take the monster manual stats, then? It also seemed fair to let the paladin choose the feats, rather than take the feats listed in the MM. But based on your information, it looks appropriate to subtract 3 from the paladin's level for purposes of character class bonuses to his mount.

 

[Diirk]

Your first paragraph is basically right, that stat block is way off tho... the info you want is pages 204-205 of the DMG.

Firstly, you don't roll stats for the mount, as stated in the mount sidebar on p45 of the PHB, you use stats as per the average of the race. So 18 str, 15 dex, 16 con, 5 int, 13 wis, 6 cha. That gets raised to 20 str and 7 int because of the paladins level. HP, saves, attack, ac etc will be lower because of this.

Secondly, the mount doesn't get the paladins saves... it gets the paladins BASE saves, and applies its own modifiers. For a 13th level paladin this means the mount gets +8 fort, +4 reflex/will. However as a 11 HD magical beast, its own base reflex save of +7 is better, so it uses that isntead. Then it applies its own modifiers, and winds up with saves of +11 fort, +9 reflex, +5 will. (+7 will with iron will)

Thirdly, you have a different list of feats than what the MM has for griffons... This is meant to be an average member of its race, not a mount custom raised and trained specifically for your paladin Up to you on this one at the end of the day tho.

Fourthly, no equipment for it unless the paladin pays.. you didn't specify if that was the case or not.

Lastly, It can only carry a light load while flying. 266 lbs or less. (For some reason a griffon is treated as bipedal, not quadrapedal for carrying capacity. This also means it can't act as a mount on the ground, only in air.. compare it to the hippogriff that has both a air carrying capacity and a ground one on page 205 of DMG)

 

[Diirk]

ps. jody your saves and carrying capacity are wrong also

 

[jodyjohnson]

Lastly, It can only carry a light load while flying. 266 lbs or less. (For some reason a griffon is treated as bipedal, not quadrapedal for carrying capacity. This also means it can't act as a mount on the ground, only in air.. compare it to the hippogriff that has both a air carrying capacity and a ground one on page 205 of DMG)

The SRD doesn't make this distinction.

It has the exact same load for Heavy Warhorse, Hippogriff, and the Griffon (all with 18 Str).

300/600/900. With the +2 Str for Paladin it's 400/800/1200.

It don't have the DMG here, but I think MM has precedence over the DMG for creature stats.

 

[Diirk]

Upon further investigation, giant eagles and owls are also 18 strength with 300 lb light load capacities in the MM, yet listed as only being able to carry 200 in the relevant section of the DMG. Yet the mounts with ability to carry their riders on both the ground and air with 18 str are listed as 300 in the DMG section. I think this is on purpose.

And while a creatures stats certainly are primarily sourced in the MM, I'd argue that the methodology of using creatures as special mounts is primarly sourced in the DMG.

 

[MetalBard]

Upon further investigation, giant eagles and owls are also 18 strength with 300 lb light load capacities in the MM, yet listed as only being able to carry 200 in the relevant section of the DMG. Yet the mounts with ability to carry their riders on both the ground and air with 18 str are listed as 300 in the DMG section. I think this is on purpose.

And while a creatures stats certainly are primarily sourced in the MM, I'd argue that the methodology of using creatures as special mounts is primarly sourced in the DMG.

It might be that to get off the ground and fly those mounts have to have a reduced load. Don't know, just an idea.

 

[frankthedm]

Flight typicly uses 2 wings, so being a quadraped [actualy hexa] helps none, just large size increases flying load. DMG covered this.

 

[Diirk]

Well you'd think that, except the hippogryph DOES got the quadraped str bonus while its flying per the DMG