Is this what it feels like to be a forever GM?

[Mini_Mischief]

Hello. Apologies if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything after a quick search.

I've been in and out of the TTRPG hobby for several years but recently have thrown myself back into it. I've been trying to build a bit of a local community, have regularly hired a community centre to run games and have been running games for newbies and young people at the local library. To try and bring GMs to our events I have created a physical miniature and map library for anyone to use at our events. I'm enjoying the process but there's a feeling that's been stirring in the back of my head and I want to know if it's just me or if there's something I should be doing differently.

I know there has always been an imbalance between players and GMs in this hobby, but what really gets to me is the lack of investment from players. I'm talking about turning up to games with nothing or at most a character sheet. They haven't even purchased and flipped through the rule book for the hobby they say they love. The best analogy I can think of is someone organising a game of Warhammer and being expected to buy, build and paint both armies because the other person wants to play but hasn't bother to invest in their own army. Nobody in that hobby would stand for it, so why do we in this one? Has anyone actually managed to change that dynamic, and if so, how?

Then there's the local game stores. One near me has been trying to find GMs to come into their store and run events for them. When I looked into it I struggled to see how that would actually benefit me as a GM. I was expected to plan the sessions, prepare all the content, bring everything needed to run the game and deliver the whole thing. The stores contribution were some tables and chairs that tbh weren't really set up with TTRPGs in mind, then they'd advertise the event and charge players to come.

I used to think that the term "Forever GM' just meant being the only person willing to run games, but I'm starting to feel it's more than that and that GMs need to essentially prop up the whole of the hobby for everyone else.

Apologies for the rant. I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm going to keep hiring the hall, running games and trying to build the community. But wanted to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way and wants it to be different. Please tell me it's because the community I'm building is new? I'd love to hear from people who've managed to build a community where the GMs are valued and players are genuinely invested, how did you do this and what does it actually look like in practice.

 

[kronovan]

...I know there has always been an imbalance between players and GMs in this hobby, but what really gets to me is the lack of investment from players. I'm talking about turning up to games with nothing or at most a character sheet. They haven't even purchased and flipped through the rule book for the hobby they say they love. The best analogy I can think of is someone organising a game of Warhammer and being expected to buy, build and paint both armies because the other person wants to play but hasn't bother to invest in their own army. Nobody in that hobby would stand for it, so why do we in this one? Has anyone actually managed to change that dynamic, and if so, how?

Then there's the local game stores. One near me has been trying to find GMs to come into their store and run events for them. When I looked into it I struggled to see how that would actually benefit me as a GM. I was expected to plan the sessions, prepare all the content, bring everything needed to run the game and deliver the whole thing. The stores contribution were some tables and chairs that tbh weren't really set up with TTRPGs in mind, then they'd advertise the event and charge players to come.

I used to think that the term "Forever GM' just meant being the only person willing to run games, but I'm starting to feel it's more than that and that GMs need to essentially prop up the whole of the hobby for everyone else....

I've only known one time in over 40 years of playing & GMing, where GMs were in abundance and fully appreciated. That was my college D&D club in the 80s. Considering that some books like DMG, MM and adventure modules were payed for by the club, it was the closest thing back then to organized and supported play. A/D&D was still in its early years and those playing were the early adopters, a niche community and very enthusiastic. So there were players eager to step up and GM.

After graduation, a number of club members transitioned to playing at a local comic store. Compared to club members, there was generaly less enthusiasm from store patrons that joined tables - they bought the PHB, painted their mini and RPd their PC, but few were willing to GM. This was the point in my playing years when it felt like GMing was actually a bit of a chore. It wasn't too bad, because 2 club members that came with me were still willing to GM.

Where I'm going with this...IME unless you're GMing at a table with a consistent group of players (preferably those that are, or are becoming friends), you're pobably not going to feel fully appreciated. IMO, the reason to GM sessions at venues like local CONs or organized play at stores, is finding players for campaigns, or ongoing adventures. Store owners and organized play coordinators bemoan this, because it often steers players away from their tables, but IME long-term play and store tables don't gel so well. There's of course exceptions to that - some forum members here that own stores are examples. Sadly in my city, very few store that were TTRPG friendly have existed for more than a decade.

For the sake of lowering stress and disappointment, it's essential to learn how to lessen your session prep. Before you buy another CRB, handbook or adventure, IMO you should instead buy Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master. It's a terrific book for helping GMs focus on what's most essential when hosting a session. It consolidates down to sentences, short paragaphs and bullet points the elements of a game session, with the result that it's much easier to run and ad lib them. For a beginning, or returning GM it's a good investment and provides a terrific template for even distilling a prewritten adventure down into a much simpler format.

I'll ditto what a few others have said, that the worlds most famous TTRPG (5e) isn't necessarily the easiest to run. IME it's not so much its rules, but the expectations players can bring to the table for playing it. After all, there's usually far more tables in almost any city where players are playing it. So they're likely to bring attitudes, habits and expectations they developed elsewhere. New players less so. You can always run things simpler like TOTM, but be alert for players losing interest. It might be more of a local thing, but once I started hosting 5e combat encounters without minis on maps, players' interest waned.

I recognize myself in you're acquiring mini and map libraries. When I returned to TTRPGs I bought well over 200 fantasy minis, bought a number of Paizo laminated maps and printed out many maps I homebrewed with Campaign Cartographer. I can't stress how much learning to GM without props can lead to a more relaxed, enjoyable experience. In my observations, a good number of GMs come to a point where they either stop, or decide to do things in a simpler manner - myself included. Once you have a consistent circle of players, your chances to explore other TTRPGs that support simpler play, will be much better.

 

[aco175]

I have been making maps with the online 1inch grid and found it to be fine. The players like it fine as well since it is no time to draw on the mat or look through the tile collection we have. Here are two pages that fit together for a swamp encounter with a road and campsite.

 

[innerdude]

Let me put it this way --- After 15 years of nearly full-time GM-ing, I still get nervous before running a session.

And this is with essentially the same core group of friends, more or less, for 15 years. These aren't strangers. These aren't randos off the street.

These are my very best adult friends, one of whom has been essentially in "best friend of all time" status since senior year of high school way back when.

And I still get nervous.

I get nervous that my prep won't be what they wanted.

I get nervous that I'm going to let them down by not making the session fun.

I get nervous that a certain concept I thought sounded cool just won't land with them the same way.

I get nervous that I've overpowered/underpowered a specific encounter that is supposed to be a "highlight" of the session.


Now, I believe if you asked my players, they'd say I'm a good, to very good, to occasionally even great GM. We consistently have fun. My players are consistently engaged. I ask them to bring the right kinds of creative energy, and they bring it. I ask them for critique on sessions. I ask them for feedback and suggestions on things they want to see and do. All in all, this is without question an absolutely amazing group of people to roleplay with.

And I still get nervous.

Now take away all of the built-in "comfort zone" of familiarity and friendship of 15+ years of gaming and put that into a situation where you're doing that same game-running activity for strangers.


Yeah. No wonder the hobby has a GM problem (and lots of "problem GMs").

 

[TheSword]

I think the biggest challenge you have is that experienced DMs are likely to have their own groups of friends. That’s how they became experienced DMs. The same goes for committed players. These folks aren’t going to go to the effort of joining a local club unless it’s going to be worthwhile for them.

Couple of options.

1. Train yourself a crop of new invested players and DMs. This will take time but given sufficient years eventually someone will come through.

2. Market really well to capture experienced players and DMs that are new to the area. This only works if you have built a good group though, otherwise why would they join?

In your experience, by charging for a seat do you get a better quality of player?

My unfounded concern about charging for a seat is that it would make the sense of entitlement worse, that a player would just turn up and expect to be entertained without putting any effort in themselves, rather than thinking "I've paid good money for this, I better get my money's worth by putting in extra effort".

I guess in terms of "appreciation" what I'm actually looking for is a reciprocation of effort. Players that go to the extra effort that I am willing to go to as a GM to make the games feel great.

I wonder if the propensity of online groups of various types now makes game club less appealing? A couple of times I joined clubs as I moved around the UK. I probably wouldn’t again.

One was quite snooty and I think the organisers of that group really thought the were great. That’s quite off putting. There were some people there that I thought were pretty dysfunctional. The guy that wanted his character to have 30 AC and was proud of it was only one example.

One group was frankly pretty smelly. The room they used in a FLGS stank of BO which was hard. I didn’t even start, that put me off Hausa as I walked into the store.

One group was lovely, really nice chaps. But for them it was all about combat and they weren’t really interested in RP. The main DM was cool and had an online mini trading business so had every mini imaginable but it was a grind fest and understandably they weren’t interested in changing.

You’re fighting against on stuff like this and I’d say you need to really get the niche right for your group. DMing for kids and growing your own talent is not bad way to do it I think.

 

[HippyCraig]

I agree with a lot of the points here, but if you still want to keep it going have a DM class at the library. This would teach that them you don’t need every book to be one and all the misconception people have. Then have them volunteer time at the hall. You could just a small entry fee to help with cost, like a few dollars nothing that would deter them from participating

Just an idea hope it helps

 

[SableWyvern]

I used to think that the term "Forever GM' just meant being the only person willing to run games, but I'm starting to feel it's more than that and that GMs need to essentially prop up the whole of the hobby for everyone else.

I don't have to prop up the hobby -- at the end of the day, I'm not at all interested in "the industry" and while I do care about "the hobby" as whole, I'm not invested in or responsible for it. What I actually care about is my group and the fun I have as a GM.

I am absolutely the single, main driving force behind my personal TTRPG group, and I'm perfectly OK with that. In return for putting in the effort to schedule, wrangle, prep games, run sessions, teach systems and all the rest, I've been able to run any game I want for the better part of 40 years. It's all up-side to me.

I certainly don't need (or want) to be paid for something I do as a hobby with my friends -- I do what I do because I get joy out of it. And my players appreciate me plenty.

Edit: Oh, and I'm grateful that I get to be the Forever GM, and don't have to compete with other members of the group that want a turn as GMs

 

[bloodtide]

have regularly hired a community centre to run games and have been running games for newbies and young people at the local library.

Me too!

I know there has always been an imbalance between players and GMs in this hobby, but what really gets to me is the lack of investment from players. I'm talking about turning up to games with nothing or at most a character sheet. They haven't even purchased and flipped through the rule book for the hobby they say they love. The best analogy I can think of is someone organising a game of Warhammer and being expected to buy, build and paint both armies because the other person wants to play but hasn't bother to invest in their own army. Nobody in that hobby would stand for it, so why do we in this one? Has anyone actually managed to change that dynamic, and if so, how?

This is very common. Casual players just show up with a character sheet....maybe. They put little effort into the game, often none. They just want the DM to make a fun game for them.

This type of person is unlikely to change. I find simply not gaming with them works much better.

Then there's the local game stores. One near me has been trying to find GMs to come into their store and run events for them. When I looked into it I struggled to see how that would actually benefit me as a GM. I was expected to plan the sessions, prepare all the content, bring everything needed to run the game and deliver the whole thing. The stores contribution were some tables and chairs that tbh weren't really set up with TTRPGs in mind, then they'd advertise the event and charge players to come.

A game store can be hit or miss. You might find a good one, but most are quite bad.

It's already bad that they just want a DM to show up and do everything to run the game, it gets worse when:

*The store is set up bad so the game tables are in the middle of the store, so people will be walking around and disrupt the game endlessly.

*Worse, is a dumb store policy that says something like "you must let anyone anytime disrupt the game always and can never ever say anything even slightly bad to them. You must bow down before the customers and let them walk all over you." And this gets worse with "customers" that will grab your private property with a "wow this is so cool" and your forbidden from saying anything about it or demand they put it down....or grabbing it back.

*The store that is firm that you can not have any outside food or drink. You MUST by the stores tiny selection of super over priced drinks and junk food. They will forbid you to even have a bottle of water. They will forbid eating any real food in the store, and offer nothing but junk food.

*Maybe the worst one. They will demand you patronize the store. Almost every week. And they don't just want you to buy a $5.99 book, they will demand to buy a $79.99 item. At least every other week.

I used to think that the term "Forever GM' just meant being the only person willing to run games, but I'm starting to feel it's more than that and that GMs need to essentially prop up the whole of the hobby for everyone else.

Most people use the term Forever DM as a person who gets stuck being the DM all the time as everyone else wants to be a player. It is very common in groups of friends that "no one wants to DM", so then the one person will give in an be like "okay, guess I'll do it again".

Apologies for the rant. I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm going to keep hiring the hall, running games and trying to build the community. But wanted to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way and wants it to be different. Please tell me it's because the community I'm building is new? I'd love to hear from people who've managed to build a community where the GMs are valued and players are genuinely invested, how did you do this and what does it actually look like in practice.

So, set the Way Back Machine for a couple years ago. I had my long long running game, but wanted to game some more. I worked at the library and they were looking for some fall/winter activities for kids. I suggested TTRPGs. The Library said 'okay' and I was hired to be "The Game Guy". Kids ran to join up and I organized it all. I picked a couple of the best gamers to join my game.

Most wanted to play the more modern style of 5E D&D as opposed to my hard fun old school style D&D. So it was hard for me to find gamers, so I took the hard tasking of making them. Going to the kids that did not sign up and getting them to play. This worked out great.

I had several groups of girls want to play (as they boys would not let them in their games). So quickly I was running a bunch of games for girls...all new gamers. For the next couple of years, the Pretty Princess, dominated the games. A bunch of princess all striving to save their kingdoms and help each other. I taught one, Jill, how to DM so she could run her own games.

I bumped in to Jill's Mom Mary and she was amazed her daughter loved this game so much....and she wanted to play. She rounded up a couple of other women....and so the Mad Moms were born, though we played at homes so we could drink.

A good 75% of all the gamers hated my game style.....but you did not have to play in my game, and it is not like I was the only DM. Still this built up a community......

 

[SableWyvern]

A good 75% of all the gamers hated my game style.....but you did not have to play in my game, and it is not like I was the only DM. Still this built up a community......

This is important.

I have no doubt lots of people want a completely different sort of game to what I run. That's fine. It doesn't make me a bad GM, and it doesn't make other people bad players. It just means we have different tastes, and that's perfectly OK.

 

[TwiceBorn2]

Let me put it this way --- After 15 years of nearly full-time GM-ing, I still get nervous before running a session.

And this is with essentially the same core group of friends, more or less, for 15 years. These aren't strangers. These aren't randos off the street.

These are my very best adult friends, one of whom has been essentially in "best friend of all time" status since senior year of high school way back when.

And I still get nervous.

I get nervous that my prep won't be what they wanted.

I get nervous that I'm going to let them down by not making the session fun.

I get nervous that a certain concept I thought sounded cool just won't land with them the same way.

I get nervous that I've overpowered/underpowered a specific encounter that is supposed to be a "highlight" of the session.


Now, I believe if you asked my players, they'd say I'm a good, to very good, to occasionally even great GM. We consistently have fun. My players are consistently engaged. I ask them to bring the right kinds of creative energy, and they bring it. I ask them for critique on sessions. I ask them for feedback and suggestions on things they want to see and do. All in all, this is without question an absolutely amazing group of people to roleplay with.

And I still get nervous.

Now take away all of the built-in "comfort zone" of familiarity and friendship of 15+ years of gaming and put that into a situation where you're doing that same game-running activity for strangers.


Yeah. No wonder the hobby has a GM problem (and lots of "problem GMs").

Are you my twin??? Notwithstanding the fact that my current group has only been together for about a year and half (but does include my best friend, whom I've known and gamed with off and on for 39 years)... you've described the exact dynamic between myself and my group of "strangers-become-friends"!

I can only hope the OP eventually gets to experience the kind of group you and I have at the moment.