Is this what it feels like to be a forever GM?

[Mini_Mischief]

Hello. Apologies if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything after a quick search.

I've been in and out of the TTRPG hobby for several years but recently have thrown myself back into it. I've been trying to build a bit of a local community, have regularly hired a community centre to run games and have been running games for newbies and young people at the local library. To try and bring GMs to our events I have created a physical miniature and map library for anyone to use at our events. I'm enjoying the process but there's a feeling that's been stirring in the back of my head and I want to know if it's just me or if there's something I should be doing differently.

I know there has always been an imbalance between players and GMs in this hobby, but what really gets to me is the lack of investment from players. I'm talking about turning up to games with nothing or at most a character sheet. They haven't even purchased and flipped through the rule book for the hobby they say they love. The best analogy I can think of is someone organising a game of Warhammer and being expected to buy, build and paint both armies because the other person wants to play but hasn't bother to invest in their own army. Nobody in that hobby would stand for it, so why do we in this one? Has anyone actually managed to change that dynamic, and if so, how?

Then there's the local game stores. One near me has been trying to find GMs to come into their store and run events for them. When I looked into it I struggled to see how that would actually benefit me as a GM. I was expected to plan the sessions, prepare all the content, bring everything needed to run the game and deliver the whole thing. The stores contribution were some tables and chairs that tbh weren't really set up with TTRPGs in mind, then they'd advertise the event and charge players to come.

I used to think that the term "Forever GM' just meant being the only person willing to run games, but I'm starting to feel it's more than that and that GMs need to essentially prop up the whole of the hobby for everyone else.

Apologies for the rant. I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm going to keep hiring the hall, running games and trying to build the community. But wanted to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way and wants it to be different. Please tell me it's because the community I'm building is new? I'd love to hear from people who've managed to build a community where the GMs are valued and players are genuinely invested, how did you do this and what does it actually look like in practice.

 

[SableWyvern]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. While you may not be interested in "the industry", the hobby wouldn't exist if people didn't invest money into it. I know someone will argue that you don't have to invest any money to actually play a TTRPG, but imagine if no one ever purchased any TTRPG content ever, what do you think this hobby would look like?

When I look at all of the content that is made and marketed in the TTRPG industry the vast majority (I wouldn't want to guess at the actual percentage) is aimed at the GM. I wonder what the ratio between player to GM spend actually is in this hobby.

Disagree all you want: the fact remains that I am not invested in nor do I feel responsible for the wider hobby, nor am I reliant on it's ongoing health, nor would it bother me if people suddenly become unwilling to spend money on new TTRPGs products (or, more to the point, if I was bothered, it would likely be by the underlying upheaval in society that caused this change in spending patterns).

If every for-profit gaming company shut down right now, my gaming would carry on just fine. People would continue to release free material. People, including me, would continue to run games. My group would continue to exist, as would plenty of others. I would keep gaming just fine, until I'm physically or mentally unable to carry on.

Whatever the state of the hobby might be, if there are people interested, I'll continue to contribute to online discourse and release some of the stuff I produce to other fans for whom it's of use, but not out of any sense of obligation or because doing so is necessary to my own gaming carrying on -- simply because I've done the work and I have opinions and experience, so why not share?

This is part of what I mean when I say GMs have to prop up the hobby, if we aligned GM spend with what players currently invest into the hobby I suspect that you would see the TTRPG hobby disappear.

Even if everyone else but me and my group did stop (which wouldn't happen, but if it did), that simply wouldn't prevent my game from continuing. In no way shape or form does my group require a healthy TTRPG industry, or any industry at all. Nor does it require a wider hobby to exist. Nothing anyone else can do (baring huge societal upheaval that has nothing directly to do with gaming) can cause anything to disappear from my table.

To be clear, I'm speaking for myself here, not anyone else. If you rely on WotC or other companies to generate interest, act as a gateway, create a pool of players for you to recruit from or things like that, you may be reliant on the industry or the wider hobby. If watching influencers, going to cons and collecting official published products is important to you, then you need an industry. But that doesn't mean everyone else is equally beholden to or interested in those things.

That said, I honestly do believe the hobby does not require an industry or financial viability. As long as people enjoy playing their games, the hobby will remain, even if it looks a bit different. To refer to another thread, this is also why I think "D&D is dead" will always be wrong. WotC might control what OFFICIAL D&D is, but they don't have any control over what D&D is to me, and no one has the power to kill my D&D but me.

 

[aramis erak]

I know there has always been an imbalance between players and GMs in this hobby, but what really gets to me is the lack of investment from players. I'm talking about turning up to games with nothing or at most a character sheet. They haven't even purchased and flipped through the rule book for the hobby they say they love. The best analogy I can think of is someone organising a game of Warhammer and being expected to buy, build and paint both armies because the other person wants to play but hasn't bother to invest in their own army. Nobody in that hobby would stand for it, so why do we in this one? Has anyone actually managed to change that dynamic, and if so, how?

understand that, arguably the singly most influential game, AD&D 1e had sections in the DMG advocating not letting players actually know the system. The PHB lacked a lot of the mechanics in that edition. That game, in print from 1979* was still selling in 1987... after AD&D 2e was released... and while AD&D 2e did put a lot more of the mechanics in the PHB, it still largely was not runnable without the DMG.

That set a tone that "players don't need to know the rules - play the GM instead of the rulebook." So, for an influential period players were expected to not learn the rules. Eventually, that started to change, but a lot of AD&D vets are still teaching newbs that they don't need to know the rules, don't waste the money.

In 45 years GMing, players with rules copies have always been the minority - the best ratio was about 90% when running D&D 5E; AD&D 2e in Retail Play was about 75%. Nothing else crossed 50% for me. Hell, my first Traveller GM didn't even own a legit copy of the rules at the time.

The combination of "Players don't need to know" and "GMs should tweak rules" makes player owned rulebooks a liability for many playstyles of old-school GMs. I was never one of those... tho' my 1981 to 1985 D&D play was BX with AD&D races and a variant multiclassing hybridizing D&D and AD&D. It was easier to just use a photocopy of my typed up rules variant than explain it. Then i discovered other games and moved to a mindset of "If I have to make major tweaks, I don't need this game..."

---

*I know components go back to 1977

 

[Bae'zel]

understand that, arguably the singly most influential game, AD&D 1e had sections in the DMG advocating not letting players actually know the system. The PHB lacked a lot of the mechanics in that edition. That game, in print from 1979* was still selling in 1987... after AD&D 2e was released... and while AD&D 2e did put a lot more of the mechanics in the PHB, it still largely was not runnable without the DMG.

That set a tone that "players don't need to know the rules - play the GM instead of the rulebook." So, for an influential period players were expected to not learn the rules. Eventually, that started to change, but a lot of AD&D vets are still teaching newbs that they don't need to know the rules, don't waste the money.

In 45 years GMing, players with rules copies have always been the minority - the best ratio was about 90% when running D&D 5E; AD&D 2e in Retail Play was about 75%. Nothing else crossed 50% for me. Hell, my first Traveller GM didn't even own a legit copy of the rules at the time.

The combination of "Players don't need to know" and "GMs should tweak rules" makes player owned rulebooks a liability for many playstyles of old-school GMs. I was never one of those... tho' my 1981 to 1985 D&D play was BX with AD&D races and a variant multiclassing hybridizing D&D and AD&D. It was easier to just use a photocopy of my typed up rules variant than explain it. Then i discovered other games and moved to a mindset of "If I have to make major tweaks, I don't need this game..."

---

*I know components go back to 1977

That's very interesting and syncs up with some portrayals of D&D having the DM being the only one rolling dice for the players.

 

[Retreater]

To the OP, the hobby has lowered the barrier to entry so much that many casual players will put in almost no effort. For me this means:

• Never purchasing or even reading the rule book
• Never thinking about the game outside the session - including levelling up
• Not bringing their own dice, pencils, papers, etc.
• Not remembering the previous session - or sometimes even how to play the game
• Not paying attention when it's not their turn during the game
• Creating actual distractions at the table or being drunk
• Cancelling at the last minute - or maybe not showing up at all

Not all new players - but some. Brand new players shouldn't be held to these standards, but eventually, it's time to move players out of the behaviors listed above or find new players. For me, I was willing to abandon the hobby altogether than to keep putting up with the list above.

 

[Reynard]

To the OP, the hobby has lowered the barrier to entry so much that many casual players will put in almost no effort. For me this means:

• Never purchasing or even reading the rule book
• Never thinking about the game outside the session - including levelling up
• Not bringing their own dice, pencils, papers, etc.
• Not remembering the previous session - or sometimes even how to play the game
• Not paying attention when it's not their turn during the game
• Creating actual distractions at the table or being drunk
• Cancelling at the last minute - or maybe not showing up at all

Not all new players - but some. Brand new players shouldn't be held to these standards, but eventually, it's time to move players out of the behaviors listed above or find new players. For me, I was willing to abandon the hobby altogether than to keep putting up with the list above.

I have a table of brand new players, ages 30 to 40, who are hyped and enthusiastic about the game. I don't know where everyone is finding these apathetic players, but maybe invite ones that are actually excited to play?

 

[aramis erak]

I find that GMs who go to major effort with prep, terrain, painted minis and buying every book actually exacerbate the problem of GMing being intimidating (and that is to say nothing of the impact of celebrity streaming GMs).

In order to grow the pool of GMs, we need to show that it is easy and does not require a huge investment of money or time.

I use mini-meeples and numbered cubes, and smaller scales (0.5"=5' or 12.5mm=1.5m -both 1:120; or 0.75"=6' 1:96 for SW, or 0.75 = 5' 1:80 for several others ), and maps printed on letter or legal 1-2 sheets for most of my play. I used geomorphs for ship contents in Star Trek Adventures - zones marked on them... at 10 cm per tile instead of the much larger (25cm) official ones. Yeah, 40%. Sometimes it's good to have PDF.

Just because 1"=5' (1:60) ground scale is standard doesn't mean you need to run the game at that scale... especially not with the current crop of (largely) 30mm figs, and the stream of various minis in everything from 25mm to 32mm...

What my friend Ben runs on 10 sheets of letter, I get on 3 sheets for the same adventure... he runs 1"=5', and I used 1"=10'... so scaling up the map in the book at 1"=20' resulted in a better fit for me than for him.

 

[TheSword]

Disagree all you want: the fact remains that I am not invested in nor do I feel responsible for the wider hobby, nor am I reliant on it's ongoing health, nor would it bother me if people suddenly become unwilling to spend money on new TTRPGs products (or, more to the point, if I was bothered, it would likely be by the underlying upheaval in society that caused this change in spending patterns).

If every for-profit gaming company shut down right now, my gaming would carry on just fine. People would continue to release free material. People, including me, would continue to run games. My group would continue to exist, as would plenty of others. I would keep gaming just fine, until I'm physically or mentally unable to carry on.

Whatever the state of the hobby might be, if there are people interested, I'll continue to contribute to online discourse and release some of the stuff I produce to other fans for whom it's of use, but not out of any sense of obligation or because doing so is necessary to my own gaming carrying on -- simply because I've done the work and I have opinions and experience, so why not share?


Even if everyone else but me and my group did stop (which wouldn't happen, but if it did), that simply wouldn't prevent my game from continuing. In no way shape or form does my group require a healthy TTRPG industry, or any industry at all. Nor does it require a wider hobby to exist. Nothing anyone else can do (baring huge societal upheaval that has nothing directly to do with gaming) can cause anything to disappear from my table.

To be clear, I'm speaking for myself here, not anyone else. If you rely on WotC or other companies to generate interest, act as a gateway, create a pool of players for you to recruit from or things like that, you may be reliant on the industry or the wider hobby. If watching influencers, going to cons and collecting official published products is important to you, then you need an industry. But that doesn't mean everyone else is equally beholden to or interested in those things.

That said, I honestly do believe the hobby does not require an industry or financial viability. As long as people enjoy playing their games, the hobby will remain, even if it looks a bit different. To refer to another thread, this is also why I think "D&D is dead" will always be wrong. WotC might control what OFFICIAL D&D is, but they don't have any control over what D&D is to me, and no one has the power to kill my D&D but me.

Congratulations. You are ‘off grid’.

For everyone else, tough luck right? People move, die, fall out, have kids and some fall out of love with the game. Having a game people have heard of is helpful for most normal groups.

Also luckily for you, your’s hasn’t ever been the prevailing viewpoint. At some point you did rely on an economically viable industry otherwise you wouldn’t have those original products that mean you don’t need to buy any more. So good job people back then didn’t feel like this. Standing on the shoulders of giants right?

 

[payn]

I have a table of brand new players, ages 30 to 40, who are hyped and enthusiastic about the game. I don't know where everyone is finding these apathetic players, but maybe invite ones that are actually excited to play?

Easier said then done. When you host an open to the public community, you get all types. Though the show up with nothing expecting to play is like 1/20 players in my experience. It happens, and I dont know why they think the way they do, but its not that common.