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Is this what you went through with 3rd Edition?

Just sticking my head in to make an observation that makes no statement for or against any company or edition:

I don't think WotC could have gotten away with a 3.75 in the eyes of the fans the same way that Paizo can. And Paizo can get away with it only because WotC is going to 4e.
 

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Hussar said:
So, because it's an opinion it somehow changes the fact that he's saying that the system is bad? How does that work?

I can appreciate prefering a systematic solution. Heck, I probably agree with you. But, I wouldn't say that a systematic solution is somehow the RIGHT solution and anything else is the WRONG solution. I would say that this solution isn't one that I agree with and wonder why it was being done this way. But, to presume that you can make objective value judgments based on your or my personal preference is, well, rather presumptuous. :)

It changes nothing about what he said. It does, however, make it clear that in his opinion the system is bad. That's not an objective statement at all. The objective statements are being used to explain WHY, according to HIS OPINION, is bad. In other words, he's using facts to come to a conclusion based on his preferences for systematic solutions to actions in the game.

KM is perfectly capable of saying that, in his opinion, the game is providing the wrong solutions. That's not presumptuous at all, nor is it an objective value judgement.
 

RPG Suvival

All the reactions I see are very similar to the 3e change. They are based on fear and judgment based on a very, very tiny portion of the rules. From what I have seen of the rules it seems like a Descent rip off. I'm going to guess that it isn't. I will hold off on making a judgment until I have the full, final rules. I have faith in the almighty dollar.

All things change and evolve. A rule of survival in the corporate world is that you need to keep pace with these changes or wither and die. I vote for D&D not withering and dieing.

Peace Space
 

Hussar said:
Why isn't it still open? The GSL is every bit as open as the old STL. Yes, it is not as open as the OGL, true, but, that doesn't make it closed. It's still an open license. I think that you'll find that the decision was made after a number of companies abandoned D&D to use the OGL to make their own self sufficient companies that now directly compete, rather than complement, WOTC.

99% of the material out there could be published under the STL. It was only after the debacle with the Book of Erotic Fantasy that the OGL became THE thing to publish under. But, the difference between the two licenses is very minor and wouldn't affect most publishers. Where the difference comes in is with publishers like, for example, Mongoose, who are using the OGL in combination with licensed products to publish games that have nothing to do with D&D. Yes, I know about the ideas of network externalities, but, I'm thinking that maybe, allowing companies to piggyback on the thousands of dollars of development you pour into your system without supporting your system isn't good business sense.
It is a bit a "Genie out of the bottle" scenario. In the beginning, people latched onto the STL because they wanted to make money with D&D. Because everybody knew that it was a large franchise and the crumbs left by WotC could sustain smaller companies. And WotC put out the STL and the OGL to make even more people interested in D&D, since it could be used to so much more that WotC could do alone. But everyone would start with D&D, and then expand.

Now, the situation has changed. People are putting out core books for their own games, that use the D20 system as a basis, but don'T require any WotC products anymore.
People in the D&D market - both customers and publishers - understood that having a solid base system (and despite all the flaws I and other 4E fanbois like to point out, it is a solid base system) can allow you to create other games that can make money and are worth to be bought.

If the 4E GSL would work the same as the OGL, people would still remember this fact. Many might use this as an opportunity to look at the core rules and immediately create their own game. (Maybe a Iron Heroes 2.0 or a Spycraft 3.0 on the 4E "engine"). The customers would by the product, because they learned "it uses a game system that is good and solid, but it can give me the special things I like".

So, the GSL will start more restrictive. It will require a PHB. YOu might create a "Spycraft" Supplement that adds some new classes and a new equipment/gadget subsystem, but what you produce won'T stand on its own. People will need the PHB to play the game effectively. (And if you have the PHB, why not also look into the DMG and MM? And by the way, there are these cool beginner adventures... Off course, there is a "cut-off" point where the likelyhood of buying anything for D&D becomes very low, if all you really want is a modern espionage game.)

Later, maybe with D20 Modern 2.0, there is room again for a more open license. At that point, there are enough 4E related and requiring products on the market that a new gamer will find 4E a compelling idea. And if someone that was there from the start couldn't be persuaded by the phletora of 4E supplements to buy more into WotC 4E, he is lost anyway, and he can freely get into a different game system. (But at least he stays in the d20 market, which means he might still keep an eye out for the off-chance that some WotC / D&D product is to his tastes again.)
 

Hussar said:
((Not too sure what it has to do with what you quoted, but, that's a different thing))
You said objective and units sold/cash produced, particularly over time, is the only truly objective measure that I can think of. I understand that you didn't use the word first.....

I'm not too sure about the wedge you mention and I think that it's more an internet thing, but, time will tell.
Well, as I've said, I've got to go to the internet to find 4e fans. So I guess you are right, the wedge is just an internet thing, in meat space everyone like 3X. :P (teasing)

But seriously, on the web the 3e debates shifted strongly toward pro-3e as the game became more and more revealed. So the internet part cancels out. The 3e debates ended in relative peace. The 4e debates just churn on and on.

But, this is a bit of a separate issue from what I'm discussing with KM. I have zero problem, as I mentioned before, with someone having a specific criticism of the game. I have my own as well. But, my beef is exactly the same one I had with 3e critics and that is vague, loose terms being tossed around as if they were facts.
I agree. There are lots of different reasons to that people have for not liking 4e. And I certainly agree that some of them are dumb. Some of them are also highly subjective or abstract, so trying to put them in terms that are anything other than loose or vague terms is not going to be easy.

My spin from the opposite side is that these abstract ideas get expressed and instead of trying to understand the point, numerous recurring pro-4e posters will launch into a lawyer style attack on the very meaning of the abstract concept. The person with an issue is suddenly left with no options other than get in a pissing match as to whether their idea of fun even exists or simply abandon the thread to a bunch of people who think they know what was said better then the person who said it.

Take the videogamey bit for a second.
And I think the issue there is largely that there are a lot of different rules changes. It is fair to conclude that somethings go one way and other go the opposite. I think I see video game influence in places and there are places where I don't see it at all. And I don't have a concern about that issue either way.
 


FadedC said:
On the other hand I still think they will make much more money by releasing 4E then they would by sticking with 3.5 and just pumping out sourcebooks. I know tons of people who may still play and reasonably enjoy 3.5 but they are no longer that excited about it and have given up on buying any new books for it. Most of these people will probably buy the 4E books.
I agree with that as well. It was time to release a new edition.
And, despite me lack of contact with people who really care for it, I'm certain that a solid majority will switch simply because it is the new shiny.

And I'm certain that they can increase cash flow with anything new compared to the heavily plowed field of 3E.

I just think they choose poorly which new field to plant in.
 

Hussar said:
Yes, it is not as open as the OGL, true, but, that doesn't make it closed.
Isn't it? Honest question. I have not been paying as close attention to this issue. (Not being interested in the game makes the GSL mostly moot) But I thought that was why they removed the "O". It isn't open. There may be a license to freely use the material. And in most ways that could function just as if it were open. But there is a fundamental difference.

Again, I don't know, so someone please straighten me out if I misunderstood.
 

BendBars/LiftGates said:
They said that they would never switch and that they would only buy the core books in order to understand the rules for the purposes of converting later material. But they had switched over within months, at most.
We had a 1e campaign going on, with a little 2e thrown in. We switched to 3e when it came out. At first it seemed great, but it lost its luster pretty quick. We ended up going back to 1e after about 6 months of 3e.
 

Into the Woods

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