Is too small of a sandbox the same as railroading?

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, so this has come up before, and is pestering us again in my group. Most of us agree the DM has to roll with the story as the PCs go, and can't make them do things (AKA railroading bad), but we disagree as to what is and is not railroading.

well the new rule I put down 3 weeks ago (when we started a 4e 1st level game) is now being challenged as railroading... the rule was "If your character doesn't want to take part in the adventure provided, then that is fine, he can sit out, just draw one up that will so you can play the game"

Now I am going to state from 3 past experences why this rule came into effect.

1) I have had players marvel at the lack of plot hooks for areas... infact in a 3.5 game becuse there was intresting news and adventures (read plot hooks) from 3 of the 4 main settlements around them, they were intrigued by the lack of things going on with the dwarves... and set out to find out why. This iratated me more then a little since I had drawn up 3 possibe adventures for the other three areas....

2) Game 2 of a WoD game set in cammarilla controled CT, all the PCs wanted to defect to the sabbot in NY... my problem, I had no sabbot NPCs drawn up, and a who cam story line ready....

3) My dresden files 4e game (still running once a month) got derailed for 2 games looking for things that were not there, and ignoreing my plot...

OK, so after a few others (these are just the main ones) I set the above rule at character creation. Now I have the city of heartland drawn up, and full of NPCs, I have a poltical villain trying to take over the city from the good and kind lord mayor, and an Orc Horde on the way to sack the town. I now also have 2 PCs who have tried twice to get the group to pick a random direction and leave town. When I enforced my rule, they balked "You can't make me play your pre written story" and I responded "No, but I can tell you I am not running a game that takes place in the white un mapped area of my world, until you atleast try to do something in the town"

Now to set this up the plot hooks they can name (but don't want to run with) are,
1) a dragon trying to claim another dragons huntting grounds
2) a group of crypt being robed that have small dungeons attached that need protecting
3) Pirates raiding boats off the cost
4) Orcs moveing about a month away on a direct line for the town
5) Goodwin;s merchent guild making a play for the town
6) a serieal killer loose on the docks
7) a small tribe of goblins harasing local farmers
8) a mystrius cave that noone ever saw before appeared...


they say that is not enough options, if they want to head out to the west then that is wher the game should move to...

so is that railroading??

 

[JustKim]

Defining railroading is irrelevant. Do the players want to do the adventure you lay out for them? If so, it does not matter if it's a railroad or not. Clearly they don't want to do the adventures you're offering. Make some changes.

I don't know anything about your game, but personally I am not grabbed by any of the plot hooks you've listed. They are too mundane for me. If your players normally go for that kind of stuff, it could be that you've given them reason to want to avoid those situations. For instance, my players don't like me to run investigations and as a player I don't like to run ruin exploration under one DM. Pay attention to what your players have to say, what frustrates them, what they want to see, and what they remember from that game three years ago.

A couple of words of specific advice:

and I responded "No, but I can tell you I am not running a game that takes place in the white un mapped area of my world, until you atleast try to do something in the town"

If nothing in your sandbox interests the players, you have not involved them enough in the world-building process. It's counterproductive to build such an attachment to that one city if the players are completely uninterested in it.

they were intrigued by the lack of things going on with the dwarves... and set out to find out why. This iratated me more then a little since I had drawn up 3 possibe adventures for the other three areas....

How can you be irritated by players that show such enthusiasm for a part of your world? And dwarves, no less. If they like the dwarves, give them dwarven adventure.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

First, I think you're right to say that the problem is not a lack of enough plot hooks-- it's that (at least some of) your players aren't interested in the plot hooks that you have.

Second, there are a couple of different possibilities as to why the problem exists. One possibility is that the players are deliberately trying to find things you haven't prepared. That's kinda a jerk move, but some players will do it. A second possibility is that the players aren't interested in the type of campaign that you're looking to run. For example, in the Vampire game, one possibility is that your players were uninterested in playing a Camarilla game. If that was the problem, then the issue isn't really a problem with the characters--it's a disconnect between the players and the game you want to run. That said, it sounds like there are a lot of different possibilities in your current game-- I wouldn't have trouble finding one of those hooks to be interested in. And I think that the basic solution of "here are the sorts of game opportunities out there-- you should play a character who is interested in at least some of them" is reasonable.

One way that you could try to resolve this problem is to have some discussion with the players in advance about what sort of game they're interested in/the ideas for games that you have. If you can get buy-in in advance, you can avoid some of these problems. That said, some players will complain if they can't go absolutely anywhere and do absolutely anything at any time. For most of us, that's not a realistic request for us to meet as a GM. I don't really have any good suggestions if that's the problem, beyond talking to the players about it directly.

 

[Amaroq]

It really depends why this is happening.

To figure that out, you need to talk to your players. Explain how much effort you put into preparing material for them, and how much it sucks when they go in a different direction. Ask why its happening; request that they give you two week's warning before heading off-script.

. . . .

If you've got a problem player who simply doesn't want to bite on any of your adventure hooks, I think you're well within your rights to say, "Okay, if so and so wants to go hiking on a random direction out of the city, he hikes out of the party and out of the game: the TV cameras are focused here."

If you're repeatedly having a problem with the same player, you may need to ask him to leave the group: I've certainly gamed with somebody who simply wasn't interested in joining the collaborative story-telling that the DM and the rest of the party were engaged in; he created four straight characters, two of which marched off camera, one of which was voted off the island by the other players, and the fourth which simply formed no connection to the other characters at all. At that point, our DM said, "Look, this isn't working."

. . . .

On the other hand, if all of your players are looking at plot hooks and asking "why would we get involved in that?", that's a totally different scenario. For instance, in your set of examples, a dwarven fighter from far away lands might be utterly uninterested ... but a paladin who is from this locale or serves the local lord would probably be very interested.

If that's what's going on, you really need to work with your players to build character backstory that ties them to specific plot hooks.

Several examples:

The fighter has been inducted into an order of knights based near this location.

The ranger's family lives in one of those outlying farms.

The cleric's twin sister was an even more powerful divine than she is, but was kidnapped at age eight. Where is she now?

The paladin has sworn an oath to serve the local Duke.

The druid views the great forest as hers: and its under threat from both dragons and orcs.

The rogue's mentor was killed by merchant guild that is now making a play for the town.

Somebody's family crypt is right next to those which have been robbed.

The rule of escalating tension is: "Make it personal."

To do that, you need your players to give you enough backstory plot hooks that you can make it personal, and get them invested in your plot hooks.

. . .

Some other ideas:

Rather than closing with victory in a climactic battle, .. don't ever close a session without the party committing to the next plot hook. That lets you write the next set of the plot. (Our DM has a good balance there: he stops at the climax, but demands that we talk it out over e-mail and commit to a direction by about ten days before our next session.) ... Alternately, think "24", and write cliffhanger endings.

Allow every plot hook that they've ignored to escalate, to come back and bite them in some way. Unchecked, the orcs succeed in sacking the town. Unchecked, the grave robbers find the powerful artifact that they were looking for, and become a lot more dangerous (or sell it to somebody really evil.)

Defeat the party, sometimes. Its pretty tough to ignore a plot-hook when its got the name of that guy who lay down a bucket of hurt on you.

Alternately, get out of the habit of pre-preparing: seriously, just roll with it. Make stuff up on the fly, jot down notes about what you said for internal consistency later, and let 'er rip. Have some interesting NPC's in mind, have some interesting encounters in mind .. but see where the players want to go.

(We've done things so unexpected, our DM has said, "Okay, we're gonna break for dinner now. I'll be back in ninety minutes or so as soon as I've figured out what's next...")

 

[Ariosto]

Does everyone really care whether anyone thinks it's 'railroading' or not? Isn't it enough that some of the players want to play a game that you don't want to game master, and don't want to play what you want to GM?

Seems to me that's what you need to talk about, and with each other.

 

[S'mon]

One nice thing about 4e combat being so long - if the PCs go off the choo-choo tracks you can just throw random encounters at them for the rest of the session, then get prepped for next time.

 

[LostSoul]

Why did the players want their PCs to leave the town of Heartland?

 

[Naszir]

Defining railroading is irrelevant. Do the players want to do the adventure you lay out for them? If so, it does not matter if it's a railroad or not. Clearly they don't want to do the adventures you're offering. Make some changes.


A couple of words of specific advice:
If nothing in your sandbox interests the players, you have not involved them enough in the world-building process. It's counterproductive to build such an attachment to that one city if the players are completely uninterested in it.
How can you be irritated by players that show such enthusiasm for a part of your world? And dwarves, no less. If they like the dwarves, give them dwarven adventure.

A DM only has so much time. Sandlot is difficult because you have to prepare A LOT in order to be prepared for all the different ways the party can decide to go. I don't know about the rest of the DM's out there but coming up with things on the fly is difficult and it wastes time and a session tends to have very little flow and even less cohesiveness. If I want to play "A night at the Improv" I'll go to the local comedy club.

As a DM, there is going to be a certain amount of railroading. Generally your trying to tell a story. If the players decide to have their characters not be a part of the story then they won't be a part of the story.

On the flip side I do believe that the characters choices need to have some effect on the world but those choices will have an effect on a limited basis to the overall arc of the campaign.

If DM's had unlimited time and unlimited resources I know a few of us would take the time to completely flesh a whole new world.

My advice would be to not let the players run over you. This is a cooperative game. Work with them and try to explain that in order for you to have a playable game that they have to play within the confines of the story that is layed out for them. Find out what they like but if they go in a completely different direction every time you attempt to tell a story they may not have a DM to run a game anymore.

 

[Ourph]

Two points...

1 - No, you're not railroading.

2 - Your players sound like jerks.

 

[Heathen72]

I now also have 2 PCs who have tried twice to get the group to pick a random direction and leave town. When I enforced my rule, they balked "You can't make me play your pre written story" and I responded "No, but I can tell you I am not running a game that takes place in the white un mapped area of my world, until you at least try to do something in the town"

It all sounds pretty disfunctional to me. Why are you even running a game for them, and why are they even playing in your game?

I would say give up and go play on a playstation, frankly, because you seem to have reached a stage where your players objective appears to be "sabotage the game if you don't get our way" and you are pulling out the "you will play my way" big stick. Neither of you seem willing enough to compromise enough to sort it out in a reasonable way.

If you are determined to go on, you need to compromise, and I would suggest the following approaches:

1) Figure out what your players want, and give it to them. Ask them ahead of time "what do you want to do?". Tell them that you are not a strong improvisor and you need prep time. Or simply ask them at the end of a session, where they are thinking of heading next session, and try to work to that. Let them do some of the work.

2) Hooks are more than just "interesting events that happen in town". Like fishhooks, they need bait. Look into your players background and draw on them. You just need to it make it a little personal. If it is not enough that the orcs are approaching from the west, for instance, mention that the last time the orcs attacked (a generation ago) they killed the PC's grandfather, which is why the family, once prospering merchants, now live in the slums.

That said, if you are indeed a GMFORPOWERGAMERS the players might not have (or care about) their backgrounds. In this case, they probably have no connection to the world - you might have to make it really personal to motivate them. If they just don't care about anything that happens to the world, then just have the orcs attack the town, including them. At least then you can all enjoy the action.

3) The final option is to "cheat it" by making it look like it's all their idea. Prepare as you had before, and prepare a few extra things on the outskirts of town, and then, when you get to the session, say "OK. Where do you want to go, what do you want to do? I will do my best to incorporate it."

Try responding to what they ask you to GMing on the fly - you might do really well - but once you have done that, subtly introduce one of your ideas into the game. If you are lucky (and this happens more often than you might think) they might stumble into an area that you have set up already. As long as you don't make it obvious that you have planned it all ahead and don't drive them towards anything, they will think you are responding to their idea.

GM's sometimes misread what the players are objecting to. You might think that they players don't want to play in the adventures that you have written, when what they may actually be objecting to is the roles you have drawn up for them. They might not want to be the heroes protecting the town, or intrepid adventurers, or mystery solvers. They might want to be bankrobbers! Or bounty hunters. Or mercenaries. If you let them drive the game for a bit, you can figure out what drives them, and then hook into that when writing up your adventures.

So if you follow option 3, and the players decide that they want to rob a bank, go with the flow, and do your best to run a bank robbery. If they fail, they can be put in jail, and find that the only way to avoid execution is to do one of your quests. Alternatively (and preferably) they succeed, and find a secret treasure map to the crypts, or to the mysterious cave no-one ever saw before, or to the pirates treasure, or the deed to a local farm (which they now own, and which is being attacked by goblins) etc. Or even better, you go away and write more 'caper' stories about crimes and robberies to entertain them. Or decide you aren't interested in running that sort of game, and find another group to GM.