Is turning Important?

[IronWolf]

Not important at all. In fact, the cleric in my game gave up that ability so he could smite giants.

That's me... I gave up turning as part of the racial sub level from Races of Stone. So far it has worked out fine. We ran into a few zombies, but they weren't too much of a factor at the time. I have made great use of the Smite Giant ability as our group is currently in the heart of a giant stronghold.

There could certainly be encounters in the future where it might be nice to have the turning ability, but I sort of subscribe to the theory that if undead are going to be a prominent part of a campaign then they will likely be difficult to turn for one reason or other.

 

[Legildur]

Certainly most of the clerics in the groups I play in place some value in turn undead. But two things spring to mind:

1. Undead are often encountered in a set area of a dungeon and consequently have been bolstered by someone and are difficult to turn. This has led to a degree of frustration amongst the various cleric players (including those that have focused on undead turning).

2. Unless you take some feats that allow you sacrifice turn attempts for another purpose (Divine metamagic, Divine Might etc) then it is a wasted resource, that makes up a fair bit of the power of the cleric class, if you don't encounter undead.

3. Having the capacity to Turn a creature that drains levels or ability points is really, really, nice to have in a tight spot.

In summary, I would NEVER be without it (unless the campaign was so clearly biased against undead), but I would make sure that I took some feats to make use of the ability for those days when there are no undead on the horizon.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As stated in the very first reply, it's entirely dependant on the campaign. A campaign that features undead will make Turn Undead a useful ability. If you play undead straight out of the book, they'll be useful in a number of encounters. Thegogmagog did a good job of showing a few example encounters. I disagree with him slightly, though. In an encounter with, say, 3-5 undead, turning 1-2 of them is a significant advantage. That takes them out of the fight for several rounds. If they can't get away even better, as they'll merely crouch in the corner cowering until you get around to whacking them.

Even single undead "boss" monsters can sometimes be turned. As a player, I once had a PC that had the equivalent of Paladin turning ability (back in 3e when it was level-2, not level-3 as it is in 3.5). With a high charisma and a fantastic roll, she managed to turn a lich once. The look on the DM's face was priceless, and it's one of my fondest D&D memories. (Not that the lich didn't come back 1d10 days later. )

In a campaign that doesn't have many undead to fight, or wherein the DM always makes sure to use unturnable undead (single critters of appropriate CR with massive numbers of HD, for instance,) naturally the ability will be less useful.

As a side note, it's always a good idea, IMO, for the cleric to pick up at least one Divine Feat, so that when not fighting Undead, his turning attempts can be put to some use. Even in Undead-heavy campaigns they're unlikely to be the foe in every encounter, and as a renewable resource, not using turn attempts is simply a waste.

 

[apesamongus]

Even single undead "boss" monsters can sometimes be turned. As a player, I once had a PC that had the equivalent of Paladin turning ability (back in 3e when it was level-2, not level-3 as it is in 3.5). With a high charisma and a fantastic roll, she managed to turn a lich once. The look on the DM's face was priceless, and it's one of my fondest D&D memories. (Not that the lich didn't come back 1d10 days later. )

I think you guys must have been using some house rules for turning or something, because otherwise, that lich was a really wimpy encounter for your party.

 

[Zimbel]

Turn undead

How important is turning undead? Is it important enough to spend feats on?

As noted above, if the campaign is undead-heavy, it's more valuable.

Also, I note that it's more valuable at low levels than high- at low levels, undead's HD tend to be closer to yours. At higher LV, many undead you'll face will have many more HD than yours.

If you spend a feat or two on it, I'd suggest making/buying a Phylactery of Undead Turning when you can. That will make turning far more useful at mid-high levels.

 

[nittanytbone]

Commanding undead is much more useful than turning undead; its just like summoning monsters except with a longer duration and without using a spell.

Sadly, the only way I see this being viable with a typical good heroic adventuring party is with a neutral cleric that channels negative energy in a party that does not have any good clerics or paladins about.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think you guys must have been using some house rules for turning or something, because otherwise, that lich was a really wimpy encounter for your party.

No house rules. We did have a minor artifact that provided a continual consecrate effect around the party, though.

Party: 4 12th-level PCs.

Lich: 1 12th-level wizard lich (CR 14), Turning HD: 16 (12 +4 for turn resistance)

Turning attempt: Max HD=16 (Roll of 20 +2 charisma +6 sacred = 28, meaning cleric level +4 = 16 HD), Turning Damage= >16 (2d6 +2 charisma +12 level).

Hrm. You're right, it wasn't a "boss" encounter. The above formula is for a cleric turning, while we only had paladin turning. It must have been a 10th-level wizard/lich, CR 12. Or an appropriate standard encounter.

Still, I think it shows that turning is still useful at higher levels. Had it been a cleric, a CR14 lich would have been possible. With a phylactery of undead turning, it wouldn't even require the highest result on the turning HD roll, either.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

From a DM's view.

If you have a high Charisma, low-level undead encounters become a cake-walk.

At Mid Levels, You out-right destroy minions, while Turning main baddies becomes an so-so possibility.

At high levels, you smoke mass numbers of undead minion hordes, much as a wizard uses fireball to clear out the tons of orc fodder before getting to the main guys. Turning the main guys doesn't happen, unless you've invested a lot specifically into Turn Undead.

The usefulness of undead depends upon the prevalence of undead in a camaping, the more undead, the more useful. Much like a Ranger's Favored Enemy, the usefullness is dependant upon the DM to include it.

Know your DM. Some'll include more undead so you can be sure to use the ability. Some will purposely LEAVE OUT undead encounters if you get good at Turning (most often if you smoke his big baddy with a Turning check once).

Me, I make sure everyone gets to use there class abilities.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think most DMs should seriously consider using the variant Turning rules in Complete Divine.

Not only do they work closer to that of other game mechanics than the artificial rules for Turning in the PHB, but they also allow lower level Clerics to at least damage high powered undead and conversely, higher level Clerics do not necessarily automatically turn/destroy lower level undead which leads to very boring encounters.

 

[axp_dave]

A good DM gives a little something in the campaign for everyone. Undead are fun for clerics to fight, but not so fun for rogues (no sneak attack damage).

I don't put much weight into turning. Imagine a battle against tough undead ("big boss"), you are unlikely to turn them.

Turning mid level undead where they flee may be good to bring the number of enemies down in the encounter, but if you stay in the castle or dungeon you may face them later, possibly evn when you are resting or at a bad time. I would always rather defeat every enemy in front to avoid having things come from behind.

When you can destroy the undead it is great and a lot of fun, but it also means the encounter was lower level and not the hardest encounter for the night.