Is Weapons master to powerful?

[Beerf]

I know of several DM’s that will not allow the weapons master prestige class. They feel it is to powerful because if done correctly and with the use of all the feats and weapons available in the smaller books and from Dragon magazine, you could easily be dishing out 200-300 point of damage a round.

Here is the main question. Is it to powerful? If so, with out giving up the feats you gain though out the level of weapons master, what is a good way to tone it down?
I thought maybe extending it to 15 or 20 level by adding levels were you do not gain any thing special. Ex: nothing for taking levels 2,5,8,11 and 14 (for 15 levels). Or nothing for taking levels 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17 and 19 (for 20 levels).
Please let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Hygric]

The weapon master is a powerful class, yes. Unbalanced? I don't know. If you do want to tone it down a bit, consider making a deal with your DM to only take every second level you gain in this class, and the other levels you gain in your base class.

 

[LordAO]

I'm getting very tired of "Is this too powerful threads". If everything was "too powerful", shouldn't that make it balanced then?

"Archers, Clerics, Sorcerers, Rogues, Weapon Masters, magic items"... all are too powerful. Come on people.

 

[Gunslinger]

It is balanaced because most of their abilities are focused on critical hits, and you're out of luck fighting undead and constructs.

 

[Apok]

[sarcasm]
Yes. Everything in 3e is too powerful and inherently broken so we should all go back to playing 1e, that paragon of infallable rulesets...

Please.
[/sarcasm]

To answer your question, no I don't believe the Weapon Master PrC is too powerful. Sure, it's oftentimes one of the main ingredients to various Smackdown! tactics but it's also a hit in versatility. A fighter who takes this PrC is basically putting all of his chickens in one basket, maxing himself out in the use of one type of weapon. What happens when he can't use it, or it's not the best weapon for the job? Basically, he's screwed. He's taken 10 levels in a PrC which make him a true badass with this one weapon to the neglect of others. Very cool concept but I can see way too many situations where said character could be screwed because he has to use another weapon or his chosen instrument of death is ineffective. That's the primary weakness of the class.

However, like so many PrC weaknesses, it is often overlooked by most DM's who don't try to exploit it. If you as a DM acknowledge only the benefits but overlook the drawbacks of player actions then you are cheating yourself and have only one person to blame, and it ain't the guy who wrote the rules.

 

[Beerf]

[BHowever, like so many PrC weaknesses, it is often overlooked by most DM's who don't try to exploit it.[/B]

Yeah but if I tell him he may Kill me. (MY PC of course)

These Replies Help and more coments will help. Thank you

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Considering the nature of 3e, all of the classes are too powerful.

Paladins? Just count the number of smackdowns high level paladins can do.

Clerics? Cleric+bow=Sultans of Smack material. Cleric+club=Sultans of Smack. . . .

Barbarians? See Sultans of Smack

Fighters? See Sultans of Smack

Rogues? See Sultans of Smack

You get the point. I've even seen smackdowns posted for bards. (Admittedly, they're the diplomacy=everyone in the world is my friend kind of smackdown).

The Weapon Master from Sword and Fist is a powerful class but no more powerful than other prestige classes. It's not Tribal Protector, Frenzied Beserker, Mage of the Arcane Order, or Devoted Defender. It's not even Templar.

Is it worth taking the class? Yes. Definitely if you want to play a master of a particular weapon who tends to be lightly armored (whirlwind attack doesn't work in heavy armor--whirlwind attack is a very heavy prerequisite and ki whirlwind is one of the class's more significant abilities) and relies upon crits. (Although statistically it's more effective with a high crit multiplier weapon than with a high crit range weapon. . . .) But I don't see it outclassing the other prestige classes.

 

[Celebrim]

To often the answer to this smacks of 'all campaigns should be run the way I run my campaign'. The true answer is that the answer depends on the way you run your campaign. The PC power that you allow into the campaign to a certain extent determines the flavor of your campaign. If everyone in the party is a twinked out fully planned out sultan of smack, then it changes the way combats are run and the way that the players interact with your world. If you don't want that, then you have to restrict or forbid access to some of the munchiest powers, classes, and feats.

One way to do this would be assume the Iconics as a baseline. Say the iconic fighter can dish out on average 60 damage a round at a certain level. Everyone knows that the iconics aren't even close to munched out, even under the basic rules, so decide on some level of ability above that that is the highest you are most comfortable with. Are you ok with a fighter of the same level dishing out 90 damage? 120? 200? 300? 1000? 10,000? At some point you as a DM have to decide on a cut off in power that you are comfortable with and that you feel best fits the style of campaign you want to run. Everyone does whether they admit it or not. For myself, I don't like the idea that a carefully planned character can achieve results that much higher than a fighter who is being constructed perhaps with RP in mind or perhaps by a newer player that hasn't spent hours pouring over books trying to find the best combinations to max out a particular ability. I think it results in players feeling as if their contribution to the success of the party is pretty much neglible. I think there is also the potential that players will focus almost exclusively on the aquisition of new powers to the neglect of developing a character that interest and entertains me and the other players.

I for one would axe any PrC from my campaign that resulted in a smackdown much higher (say more than 10-20%) than the best smackdown of a munched out pure core class character in a similar situation using the basic rule set.

But, maybe you want uber-heroics, cartoon super heroes, exagerrated action, low fantasy badass, and so forth in your campaign. Then by all means go to town with the Templars, Devoted Defenders, Frenzied Beserkers, Order of the Bow Initiates, Weapon Masters, Archmages, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

As has already been showed, there are ways to exploit the wm weaknesses.

But let's say even with that its just not working for you, you could try this.

!) Outlaw wm. Its too powerful you say.

2) You notice that one or more of your players seems dejected or has made it known they would like to take the class. You sigh, saying alright guys, since you want it so badly I'll let you have it. But....

3) You add additional prereqs or drawbacks to the class. "... I want some extra drawbacks to taking this class." It could be something you make up, or better yet ask the player to come up with a drawback. Maybe gaining that focused with a weapon requires the player to make it himself!! From mithral or adamantite no less!! Maybe it requires a special ritual to atune yourself to a weapon (like some samurai classes). Maybe their ki abilites drain them in some way (ability score loss).


As I have said in many of my other posts, I believe 3e doesn't need less power to be balanced, it needs more penalties. With this way, you can allow your players to feel special for getting to take the class anway, you get to look generous in front of everyone, and now you have some new drawbacks that are fun to roleplay and will allow to control the wm power when needed.

 

[Brekki]

I am playing in a 17th level group now, and the weaponmaster is not overpowering there.

He is a Human Fighter 7/Weapon Master 10, the others are a Human Cleric 9/Sorceror 1/Dragon Disciple 7, Human Druid 17, Drow Wizard 15

In melee combat he is the main damagemachine, but the selfboosting cleric gets very near. The "Legendary Bear" druid doesn't get that much damage but is very versitile in combat.

The increased multiplier and increased threat range from the WM makes sure he stays the main melee damage machine, but he relies on others for his healing/boosting/safety/travel, and that's a big downside.