Isolation of the Dark Sun multiverse

[Roman]

Nowadays, every setting has its own cosmology, but back in 2E days the Great Wheel cosmology united the official D&D worlds. Dark Sun, however, IIRC was an isolated setting. I think it still had some links to the Great Wheel, but mostly it was separated. I don't have my DS materials with me (and won't for a long time, due to being in a university dormitory and in any case as much as I love the setting my knowledge of Dark Sun has never been spectacular, so I would appreciate it if somebody with more knowledge on the matter could elaborate on the barriers and linkeages between Dark Sun and the rest of the Great Wheel multiverse. Thanks!

 

[Shemeska]

It wasn't in its own seperate cosmology. It was somewhat unique however in that most of its planar connections were blocked or highly restricted.

Athas still had all of its connections to the Inner Planes, but access to the Ethereal, Astral, and Outer Planes was, with slim exception, largely impossible. Even the souls of the dead couldn't reach the outer planes, nor could conventional deities arise on Athas due to the lack of outer planar connections, and a region known as the Gray surrounded Athas like a sealed buffer between it and those planes.

The reason for the lack of connections was never explained.

However ways in and out did exist. Dregoth the undead sorcerer king had access to an artifact that allowed him to visit the multiverse at large, the githyanki had some interaction with Athas in the past, there were Athasian that visited the inner planes, and there was a racial/cultural ghetto called New Tyr in Sigil formed by refugees from Athas (so presumably there were portals from Sigil to Athas). A renegade rilmani claimed to have been to Athas prior to the genocides instigated by Rajaat. There was also the bit of Athas that was ensnared by the mists of Ravenloft, or (more likely) recreated around that particular darklord who was originally a Templar on Athas. The Gray isn't absolutely solid to transit, though it might as well be.

 

[Roman]

I was not trying to suggest that Dark Sun was completely separated from the Great Wheel cosmology, I know it still belonged to it, but it was also mostly isolated with only some linkeages. Thanks for shedding the light on some of the connections between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel cosmology. Yes, I recall that Dregoth had the Planar Gate artifact that allowed travel to and from Athas, but I was not sure about the other connections.

As to the links between the Inner Planes and Athas - were those the really same Inner Planes as for the rest of the Great Wheel? If so, travel should have been possible accross them between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel, no? The paraelemental and quasielemental planes, I believe, were completely different too - at least in name.

 

[Mark Hope]

I was not trying to suggest that Dark Sun was completely separated from the Great Wheel cosmology, I know it still belonged to it, but it was also mostly isolated with only some linkeages. Thanks for shedding the light on some of the connections between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel cosmology. Yes, I recall that Dregoth had the Planar Gate artifact that allowed travel to and from Athas, but I was not sure about the other connections.

As to the links between the Inner Planes and Athas - were those the really same Inner Planes as for the rest of the Great Wheel? If so, travel should have been possible accross them between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel, no? The paraelemental and quasielemental planes, I believe, were completely different too - at least in name.

Shemeska has covered the main bases here, and I'd agree with pretty much all of that. The Grey is indeed the most prominent barrier between Athas and the Astral (and other planes, one would presume), although that barrier is breached on a number of occasions in DS products (in addition to those examples given by Shemeska, there are appearances by fiends here and there, and at least one of the DS squid monsters is cited as having come from another world).

As for the inner planes, Planescape would suggest that they are the same. There is a portal from the plane of Fire (iirc) that leads to Athas, and there are the race known as the ruvoka who apparently originate from Athasian druids (or so I recall) who undergo elemental transformations. They may or may not be the same as the DS race called the ukoven - there are several strong similarities between the two.

One of the Spelljammer supplements (Spacefarer's Guide?) also mentions that Athas is a closed or sealed crystal sphere, but there are no mentions of crystal spheres in DS material. Unreleased DS material was going to involve an Athasian comet that turned out to be a spacecraft of some kind with three ancient DS rhulisti (bio-engineering halflings) in deep sleep on board. It was going to crash into Athas, with various consequences. Not sure how this may or may not tie into Spelljammer lore, and it was never released anyhow (but did give rise to several years of increasingly daft "Invasion of the Killer Space Hobbits" rumours, until the designers in question debunked most of the speculation).

There is and interesting connection with the Spelljammer race Xik-chil (sp?) - the bio-engineering mantis-men. They bear a striking resemblance to Dark Sun's zik-chil, who are a sect of thri-kreen who engage in genetic engineering of other kreen species (they are known as the "Priests of Change" on Athas). Spooky bunch. (Some fans adhere to the idea that they are descended from ancient renegade rhulisti who changed their forms, but I personally think that's absurd.)

There is also the interesting tidbit that the kreen believe in a freezing cold hellish afterlife which they call Kano - seems clear to me that this is meant to be a veiled reference to Caina in the Nine Hells.

 

[Roman]

Thanks for the answer.

Still, it just seems that if the Inner Planes were the same between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel, the contacts between the two should have been much more common, as any travel to any Inner Plane would bypass the Grey or whatever other barriers there were between Dark Sun and the rest of the Great Wheel. Also, how are the differences in paraelemental and quasielemental planes explained?

So, this is a comprehensive list of connections mentioned so far between Athas and the Great Wheel:

Planar Gate (artifact in Dregoth's possession)
?Sigil-Athas portal(s)?
?Athas-Elemental Plane of Fire portal?
?Common Inner Planes?

 

[Mark Hope]

Thanks for the answer.

Still, it just seems that if the Inner Planes were the same between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel, the contacts between the two should have been much more common, as any travel to any Inner Plane would bypass the Grey or whatever other barriers there were between Dark Sun and the rest of the Great Wheel. Also, how are the differences in paraelemental and quasielemental planes explained?

Well, this is a fair point, and one I didn't delve into too deeply above. Simply put, although there are enough points of correspondence between Planescape inner planes and those of Dark Sun to assume that they are the same, at the same time there are enough points of difference to raise questions of their differences.

The DS inner planes differ from those of the Great Wheel in a few ways, not least of which is nomenclature. Yes, DS has planes of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But it also has Silt, Sun, Rain and Magma paraelemental planes. While Magma corresponds easily to the Great Wheel plane of the same name, the others are less easy to link. Sun exists through a confluence of Fire and Air, so you could equate that to the Great Wheel plane that lies in the same position, for example (is it Smoke? can't recall...) But its characteristics don't quite match those of the Great Wheel, so you could also argue that equating the two isn't such a good idea.

Different fans have addressed this in different ways. An easy solution is to say that the DS Inner Planes aren't the same as those of the Great Wheel, and that any seeming similarities are just coincidences (although this doesn't fully explain the gate from the Great Wheel plane of Fire to Athas). Another approach is to say that the DS inner planes are regions of the Great Wheel inner planes that are generally unknown to planewalkers for whatever reason - and vice versa. Or you could say that Athas lies in the far future of the multiverse, and that the Great Wheel inner planes eventually devolve into those seen in the Dark Sun setting (I use an approach similar to this myself). Without any solid answer, you have a great deal of freedom in how you choose to address the issue.

Additionally, there is also the issue of the wars between the elements that is a part of the DS setting. DS lore depicts the elements as perpetually battling one another, with the conditions on Athas being caused by and in turn influencing the state of the planes. So Silt is defeating Water, with obvious results, for example. There are inter-elemental conflicts in the Great Wheel, but it seems less apocalyptic than in DS, and has less effects on the Prime Plane (afaik - others may correct me on this).

So, this is a comprehensive list of connections mentioned so far between Athas and the Great Wheel:

Planar Gate (artifact in Dregoth's possession)
?Sigil-Athas portal(s)?
?Athas-Elemental Plane of Fire portal?
?Common Inner Planes?

There is also the githyanki gate to the Astral from Black Spine and a handful of summoning spells and items. I wouldn't go on record as saying that this is a 100% comprehensive list, but it's a good overview. There should be a few more tidbits forthcoming from Athas.org in the next few months, as they are releasing some previously unpublished TSR-era materials that deal with planar connections here and there (specifically, the Secrets of the Dead Lands and the Faces of the Far North and Lost Cities publications). These are still in the final phases of development, though, so I'm not really at liberty to discuss more until the finished products are released.

 

[Desdichado]

I think the reason is best explained "metagame" rather than "in-game" actually--the in-game explanations seem a bit half-hearted and lacking in details.

On the other hand, the integrity of the Dark Sun setting is compromised with the Great Wheel cosmology attached, and Dark Sun characters were balanced internally to the setting, but not with characters from other settings. In other words, Dark Sun and the rest of D&D didn't really mix well.

 

[prosfilaes]

Thanks for the answer.

Still, it just seems that if the Inner Planes were the same between Athas and the rest of the Great Wheel, the contacts between the two should have been much more common, as any travel to any Inner Plane would bypass the Grey or whatever other barriers there were between Dark Sun and the rest of the Great Wheel.

You're talking infinite planes; there's no reason to think that after you travel for a million miles on the inner planes, you won't start running into people from entirely different prime planes or even entirely different outer planes. It's possible that the regions of the Inner Planes close to Athas are protected by the Grey, with close being far enough that only a vanishing few travellers would ever escape it.

 

[Shemeska]

I just remembered another DS reference within Planescape:

In 'Dead Gods, it's mentioned that Tenebrous/Orcus managed to obtain a rhulisti lifeshaping artifact that he attempted to use to craft himself a new body to stave off the effects of the Last Word during his period of undeath (he may have actually travelled to Athas to obtain the device IIRC, but I don't have the book handy to check).

And as for the differences in the elemental planes as described in DS versus the rest of D&D/Planescape. I'm perfectly willing to chalk up the differences purely to the terminology used by the Athasians to describe the same planes that the rest of the multiverse defaulted to different names for. What an Athasian might have called a paraelemental plane of sun, might have been a region of elemental fire, or quasielemental radiance, or simply the region of elemental fire that bordered upon the ethereal boundary closest to the Gray of Athas. It might honestly be a combination of both different names for the same sets of planes, and localized differences in those planes where the Athasian Gray held some local influence. The Athasian would be familiar with such regions, but the average planewalker would likely never come across it compared to the rest of the infinity of that particular elemental plane.

 

[Tarek]

The theory a friend of mine, and the DM for a 1st edition campaign I was in, came up with made a great deal of sense.

The reason, he said, that Athas is isolated from the Outer Planes is because the plane is sitting in the eye of a permanent psychic wind, an astral hurricane as it were.

The psychic wind snaps the silver cords used to project between the planes, and would be very disruptive to Outer Planar connections if it were something like a permanent storm. Think of the astral equivalent of the Great Red Spot on Jupiter.

That explains why the Astral is referred to as "the Black" on Athas; it's a side effect of the astral winds.

Travel through the Ethereal, "the Gray" is not affected very much; the Inner Planes are easily reached.

 

[Mark Hope]

The theory a friend of mine, and the DM for a 1st edition campaign I was in, came up with made a great deal of sense.

The reason, he said, that Athas is isolated from the Outer Planes is because the plane is sitting in the eye of a permanent psychic wind, an astral hurricane as it were.

The psychic wind snaps the silver cords used to project between the planes, and would be very disruptive to Outer Planar connections if it were something like a permanent storm. Think of the astral equivalent of the Great Red Spot on Jupiter.

That explains why the Astral is referred to as "the Black" on Athas; it's a side effect of the astral winds.

Travel through the Ethereal, "the Gray" is not affected very much; the Inner Planes are easily reached.

Well, the Black isn't the same as the Astral - DS has both - it's a separate plane that doesn't really have any equivalent in other cosmologies (although it shares some similarities with the Plane of Shadow). They Grey can be equated with the Ethereal with greater ease, though (athas.org uses a system similar to this). Cool idea about the psychic wind, though - that's a really interesting take on Athas' isolation.

 

[Roman]

Good explanations and theories! It does seem, however, that the case for the inner planes being separate or common can go both ways. I think I would rule in my campaign that they would be separate, though I would entertain the fact that the barriers between them and their Great Wheel equivalents are weaker and easier to breach and travel through than most other means of escaping Dark Sun.

 

[Roman]

There is also the githyanki gate to the Astral from Black Spine and a handful of summoning spells and items. I wouldn't go on record as saying that this is a 100% comprehensive list, but it's a good overview. There should be a few more tidbits forthcoming from Athas.org in the next few months, as they are releasing some previously unpublished TSR-era materials that deal with planar connections here and there (specifically, the Secrets of the Dead Lands and the Faces of the Far North and Lost Cities publications). These are still in the final phases of development, though, so I'm not really at liberty to discuss more until the finished products are released.

I am looking forward to it.

BTW: You also mentioned Dark Sun being a closed crystal sphere. Does this crystal sphere officially include only Athas and its Sun, or also other planets and if the latter, is there any official info on them?

 

[Mark Hope]

I am looking forward to it.

BTW: You also mentioned Dark Sun being a closed crystal sphere. Does this crystal sphere officially include only Athas and its Sun, or also other planets and if the latter, is there any official info on them?

Well, DS material makes no reference to crystal spheres, but canonically speaking, the Athasian "solar system" is known to contain at least 5 celestial bodies. There is the sun (an immense, bloated crimson monster), Athas itself, its two moons (a little one called Ral and a big one called Guthay) and a periodical comet called the Messenger, which returns to Athas every 45 years. There are scattered references here and there in DS mythology about creatures living on the moons (one DS legend claims that Silk Wyrms come from there, for example), but no references to other planets or bodies that I am aware of. The maps of the Tablelands do have some rather interesting crater-like features, so it's clearly feasible.

As mentioned above, undeveloped DS lore reveals that the Messenger is a spacecraft with those three ancient rhulisti in hibernation inside, but it's not clear whether the Messenger was supposed to be a comet that was co-opted as a vessel, or a vessel that was mistaken for a comet. This material was never released and is non-canonical (and widely derided by many fans, although I quite like the idea) and, at last report, there are no plans to develop it any further.

Some fans have come up with interesting ideas about Athas actually being a moon of Guthay, and not the other way round. In this conception, Guthay is a vast gas giant. I don't use this myself, but it is a neat idea. There were also a few templates made for creatures from deep space that were pretty cool as well - but that's all fanon ...

 

[Roman]

Very interesting indeed, though I must confess that I do not like the idea of the messanger comet being a spaceship.

Now that I think about it and the Great Wheel ceased to be the default unifying cosmology in 3E/3.5E and the Forgotten Realms even switched to a custom-created cosmology of its own, it may perhaps have been wise to sever Dark Sun from the Great Wheel too and avoid these issues.

On the other hand, though, I do like the idea of an overarching cosmology unifying the worlds...

 

[Roman]

Hmm, I have another question related to this matter. Dark Sun does not and cannot have gods as the conduits of divine power simply do not exist. Still, the sorceror kings are able to grant spells to their templars. Why is this the case?

I do recall that I was interested in this issue before and the answers I obtained were somewhat conflicted, some positing that the transformation of the champions by Rajaat (spelling?) through the dark lens changed their nature in such a way as to enable them to grant spells to their followers and other explanations claiming that somewhere at the beginning, possibly/likely during the transformation into dragons, vortex-like creatures living in the positive energy plane (!) attached themselves to the sorceror kings and these enable them to channel positive (!) energy to their followers. Supposedly, also these vertex-like creatures are now extinct in the positive energy plane, so other such attachments are impossible.

Can anybody explain or elaborate?

Edited to add: I also recall something to the effect that the Sorceror Kings cannot use their spell-granting power they use to grant spells to the templars for themselves personally and that this vexes them enormously. Is this actually the case and if so why?

 

[William Ronald]

Hmm, I have another question related to this matter. Dark Sun does not and cannot have gods as the conduits of divine power simply do not exist. Still, the sorceror kings are able to grant spells to their templars. Why is this the case?

I do recall that I was interested in this issue before and the answers I obtained were somewhat conflicted, some positing that the transformation of the champions by Rajaat (spelling?) through the dark lens changed their nature in such a way as to enable them to grant spells to their followers and other explanations claiming that somewhere at the beginning, possibly/likely during the transformation into dragons, vortex-like creatures living in the positive energy plane (!) attached themselves to the sorceror kings and these enable them to channel positive (!) energy to their followers. Supposedly, also these vertex-like creatures are now extinct in the positive energy plane, so other such attachments are impossible.

Can anybody explain or elaborate?

During part of 2nd Edition, spells of a limited level could be gained by faith alone. (This is somewhat similar to Eberron, where no one can definitely say that the gods exist. Theoretically, in Eberron, someone who believes strongly in the power of Tommy the Talking Turtle has the same access to clerical magic as the followers of the Celestial Host. ) I am not familar with Dark Sun, but a similar mechanic could be used to explain the existence of clerical magic.

Also, Athas still had access to the elemental planes, so entities of that plane may have granted spells to people on Athas. This might explain much, even if those entities did not take direct action in the affairs of Athas.

As for cosmology, I don't see why the Great Wheel could not easily be part of an even more complicated cosmology, with some thinking that the Great Wheel was the sum of existence. (I never really was much of a Planescape fan or foe, but I did like the 1st edition concept of the spike at the center of the Plane of Concordant Opposition being the World Mountain/World Tree/Center of All Things from varius belief systems from the real world, being perceived by beings in many different ways. (Okay, my reading of Joseph Campbell is showing.) Mind you, I like the idea of multiple cosmologies in 3rd Edition, because it does give DMs a bit more freedom.)

 

[Roman]

During part of 2nd Edition, spells of a limited level could be gained by faith alone. (This is somewhat similar to Eberron, where no one can definitely say that the gods exist. Theoretically, in Eberron, someone who believes strongly in the power of Tommy the Talking Turtle has the same access to clerical magic as the followers of the Celestial Host. ) I am not familar with Dark Sun, but a similar mechanic could be used to explain the existence of clerical magic.

I don't think it worked this way in Dark Sun, but there were other ways to get 'divine' magic.

Also, Athas still had access to the elemental planes, so entities of that plane may have granted spells to people on Athas. This might explain much, even if those entities did not take direct action in the affairs of Athas.

Yes, IIRC elemental entities did grant spells to elemental clerics.

 

[Mark Hope]

Hmm, I have another question related to this matter. Dark Sun does not and cannot have gods as the conduits of divine power simply do not exist. Still, the sorceror kings are able to grant spells to their templars. Why is this the case?

I do recall that I was interested in this issue before and the answers I obtained were somewhat conflicted, some positing that the transformation of the champions by Rajaat (spelling?) through the dark lens changed their nature in such a way as to enable them to grant spells to their followers and other explanations claiming that somewhere at the beginning, possibly/likely during the transformation into dragons, vortex-like creatures living in the positive energy plane (!) attached themselves to the sorceror kings and these enable them to channel positive (!) energy to their followers. Supposedly, also these vertex-like creatures are now extinct in the positive energy plane, so other such attachments are impossible.

Can anybody explain or elaborate?

It's a matter of some contention in the DS community, further confused by one or two of the novels that directly contradict the game material (and not helped by the fact that these novels are very popular on the whole). As far as the game material goes, it works as follows:

Athas doesn't have the conduits that connect the prime plane to the outer planes, hence it does not have - and never had - deities. It does, however, have powerful spirits that can grant spells to those who follow them (such as druids and rangers), and powerful elementals on the elemental planes who can grant spells to their followers (such as clerics).

As for the sorcerer-kings, they were originally powerful defilers and psions who were granted immortality by the First Sorcerer Rajaat, when he made them into his Champions for the genocidal Cleansing Wars. Harnessing the energies of the sun through the Pristine Tower (an ancient rhulisti place), this transformation also gave them the power to drain life energy through the use of obsidian orbs. He also hinted at a level of power beyond this, power that would combine their magic and psionics and elevate them to near godlike status. It was at this time that Rajaat's use of the Pristine Tower turned Athas' sun from yellow to red.

Rajaat was eventually betrayed by his Champions (a rebellion led by a Champion called Borys) and imprisoned in a weird little plane called the Hollow by the power of an artifact called the Dark Lens. Borys allowed the other surviving Champions to take control of a city-state each (some had died and others had been slain in the rebellion for siding with Rajaat). Thus the Champions became the sorcerer-kings of their chosen domains. Borys then used the Dark Lens to transform the sorcerer-kings into Athasian Dragons (advanced beings that meld psionics and magic - the same beings previously hinted at by Rajaat). In the resulting conflagration of energies, the sorcerer-kings were unwittingly connected to creatures called Living Vortices. The Living Vortices (which spanned the prime, the ethereal and the elemental planes) created conduits between the sorcerer-kings and the elemental planes, allowing the sorcerer-kings to grant spells to their worshippers. It is important to note that the sorcerer-kings were pretty much ignorant of how they gained the ability to grant spells - it was more or less an accidental side-effect of their transformations into fledgeling dragons.

The sorcerer-kings then used the Dark Lens to transform Borys into a fully-developed dragon, and he took up guardianship of the Hollow, periodically claiming a levy of souls from the other sorcerer-kings in order to reinforce the wards around Rajaat's prison. As for the Living Vortices, yes, they are now extinct as a species. However, the adventure Dregoth Ascending reveals that Living Vortices can survive the death of the sorcerer-king to which they were attached. So, with a number of deceased sorcerer-kings on Athas, there may well be a handful of Living Vortices still in existence.

That's the short version, anyhow...

 

[Desdichado]

On the other hand, though, I do like the idea of an overarching cosmology unifying the worlds...

That's still present, in the form of the Plane of Shadow connecting multiple cosmologies. For what it's worth, I think that's a much more elegant and usable solution than spelljaming or the Great Wheel (IMO, a distinct Greyhawkism) uniting all settings if you actually want characters to be able to travel to different settings.

Although I also feel that each setting having it's own cosmology is a feature, not a bug. It's a good thing as it allows the setting to be able to set itself apart more in terms of feel and tone. Although folks like Shemeska might disagree, I've never thought that Planescape was a good one size fits all cosmology. It's good as a setting in and of itself (with the exception of the cant--bleagh) but that's where it's utility ends, IMO.