Issue with Wind Walk

[BSF]

Ok - So to clarify:

1. Houserule WW to clarify that the "magical wind" effect only works outdoors
2. Further clarify that with poor maneuverability, a WWer moving at a rate between 10 and 601 feet per round cannot make a 90 degree turn and thus will need possibly a great deal of room (based on their movement?) to make this turn unless they significantly slow down. If obstructions are encountered (eg. walls) damage could occur (based on momentum... but what of mass? oh well - that one feels like a can of worms anyway).

One thing to keep in mind is that Wind Walk only has two apparent modes of transport.

10'/round (Per Gaseous Form - This is not a base move. You fly at 10' round with perfect maneuverability.)
60 Mph (600'/round) which is Gaseous Form being blown by a magical wind. In this form you have poor maneuverability, with all that implies.

In many cases, it will be practically impossible to turn a corner in the "very fast" mode.

It is entirely reasonable to houserule that the winds won't work indoors. It would also be reasonable to rule that the winds will only work indoors in large, open areas. This leaves big caverns and the like as possibilities, but restricts wind walk in tight areas in a logical manner.

3. At these levels, the bad guys deserve what they get if they are not flinging about 6th level or higher spells daily or using permanency on selected abjurations.

Base this on the personalities and magic level of your campaign. But, if your bad guys are relatively saavy, somewhat wealthy, carrying a healthy dose of paranoia and not expecting to wander around killing stuff that day, it makes sense that they would choose to act as defensively as possible. Players have a tendency to think they are the only clever people in the world and that they have the cool abilities to get the drop on the bad guys whenever they want. If you want to join the Rat Bastard DM's club, you create bad guys with character flaws and strengths that can surprise the hell out of the players. You don't need to design defenses specifically against the PC's, just defenses against the average PC-type.

4. If you want a lower magic campaign, nix a few "problem" spells that create plot problems (for all sides);

Correctamundo?

~D

 

[Saeviomagy]

Good, but for the weirdos, I'd point out just how difficult it is for the human brain to process data when moving 60mph. Imagine trying to do a search at a full run (120). Your brain just won't do it; heck, your neck won't snap side to side fast enough to see all that you need. A fast walk (double move = 60) is probably the fastest you can go.

Yeah, because I see people go into sensory overload all the time when cruising at 13 miles per hour.

60mph, I can see problems with in a restricted environment, because it's freeway speed.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Yeah, because I see people go into sensory overload all the time when cruising at 13 miles per hour.

Not overload per se, but most of humanity simply doesn't process what they perceive when provided too much information. There's a difference between going into overload and simply not noticing things.

Consider trying to find someone in a supermarket where you're going through the hall in the middle of the store that cuts across all the aisles. You can't go much beyond a quick walk or you'll be through an aisle before you get to look down both sides.

You can run across the front of the store since you're now only looking in one direction but if you see something that might be your quarry you slide to a stop and back up to take a real look. Given the "poor" maneuverability, imagine doing this on, say, a big motorcycle.

Wait, even better. This is like the speederbike scene in Jedi only worse. You're moving fairly fast but with limited mobility (poor maneuverability) but the advantage that you can smoke through leaves and brush.

Now imagine doing that in a dungeon setting where the lighting is poor, torches are strobing by, and if you're relying on darkvision or magic light you're only seeing about 0.5 seconds ahead of you.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Consider trying to find someone in a supermarket where you're going through the hall in the middle of the store that cuts across all the aisles. You can't go much beyond a quick walk or you'll be through an aisle before you get to look down both sides.

With the exception that the average dungeon has a lot less going on in it that the average supermarket. I'd say a penalty to spot checks would be about all you'd need - if the penalty is at -5 for instance, the average person in a dungeon in good light has problems spotting someone standing 50 feet away...

Now imagine doing that in a dungeon setting where the lighting is poor, torches are strobing by, and if you're relying on darkvision or magic light you're only seeing about 0.5 seconds ahead of you.

That's why I said that freeway speed would be problematic.

 

[daemonslye]

One thing to keep in mind is that Wind Walk only has two apparent modes of transport.

I am not fully convinced this is rules-as-written:

a magical wind wafts a wind walker along at up to 600 feet per round (60 mph) with poor maneuverability

Correct me if I am wrong, but I would normally assume that other speeds are possible; Limited, of course, to a top end of 60mph;

I could see where, I, as DM, could interpret this to mean "a magic wind wafts a wind walker along at *the speed of* 60mph - but I would expect slight push back; Otherwise, I could apply a houserule to assume that a "wind" (as opposed to a breeze, etc.) implies speed and that speed is equal to but not less than 60mph. But I would be clear that I have houseruled this.

~D

 

[BSF]

I am not fully convinced this is rules-as-written:



Correct me if I am wrong, but I would normally assume that other speeds are possible; Limited, of course, to a top end of 60mph;

I could see where, I, as DM, could interpret this to mean "a magic wind wafts a wind walker along at *the speed of* 60mph - but I would expect slight push back; Otherwise, I could apply a houserule to assume that a "wind" (as opposed to a breeze, etc.) implies speed and that speed is equal to but not less than 60mph. But I would be clear that I have houseruled this.

~D

*nod* OK, I can see that now. I kept reading it and somehow skipping over the "up to". One of the oddities of this is that the maneuverability appears to go from Perfect at 10' to Poor at up to 600'. Very strange.

 

[Lamoni]

One of the oddities of this is that the maneuverability appears to go from Perfect at 10' to Poor at up to 600'. Very strange.

Yes it is. I actually read it as having perfect maneuverability or poor maneuverability. You can travel on your own perfectly, or you can be pushed by a gust of wind which reduces your maneuverability to poor. I don't think this would be a house rule. In fact, I don't think any house rules are needed. The situation that was described with the characters zipping through a castle would never happen. Well, maybe if it was all a one room castle with only one door with cracks in it. How fast could a person possibly go with poor maneuverability to make a 90 degree turn into a door from a 15' wide corridor? How about from a 10' wide corridor? I don't want to do the math or reference, but I don't see a problem with using a magical wind indoors. You aren't going to just go zipping by all the enemies though. And as far as slipping through cracks, that is fine with most doors, but it wouldn't be too inappropriate to have a particularly well crafted door with no cracks in some locations (maybe guarding a treasure room). Most doors would have plenty of cracks, but good luck maneuvering through cracks with poor maneuverability. I think that would require moving slower than 10'... but in that case it would be easier to drop the wind and move with perfect maneuverability.

 

[daemonslye]

The situation that was described with the characters zipping through a castle would never happen. [...] How fast could a person possibly go with poor maneuverability to make a 90 degree turn into a door from a 15' wide corridor? How about from a 10' wide corridor? [...] You aren't going to just go zipping by all the enemies though. And as far as slipping through cracks, that is fine with most doors, [...] Most doors would have plenty of cracks, but good luck maneuvering through cracks with poor maneuverability. I think that would require moving slower than 10'... [...]

DMG p.20: Poor Maneuverability = 45 degree turn and requires {at least} 5'.

So a creature could potentially turn 90 degrees using 10' of space;
However this does not take into effect speed - and according to the DMG,
{by my reading} speed is not a factor except for "minimum forward speed";

So - we have two choices:

1. Gaseous Form does not require "minimum foward speed" - no matter the
maneuverability.

2. Gaseous Form, during a wind walk (above 10' per move), *does*
require "minimum foward speed" of half-speed; Unfortunately, because the
speed is variable based on your choice, this complicates matters (eg.
"what is half-speed"? 300'/r? 30'/move assuming you were travelling at 60'?);
What if you were "on (or next to) the ground"? If so, you could simply adjust
your speed between moves with no ill-effects ("natural" flyers would "crash";
I assume gas would not).

So - My conclusion is that #1 is the correct way to see this; If this is
so, then RAW, one could be travelling at 200'/r and make a 90 degree
turn in a 10' hallway.

That said, we could houserule this to clarify maneuverability rules and
require a poor flyer to use half of its current speed as minimum distance
before another 45 degree turn is made. Thus - a wind walker travelling at
100' per move action would require 100' to make a 90 degree turn - or
must slow to 10' per move action to make the turn in a 10' hallway
(giving "perfect maneuverability" anyway - cool);

As for blowing through doors - this is interpretive. Can a gas flow through
and around an obstruction without losing momentum? Probably not.
However - How much momentum is given up (given so little mass) must
take into account too many variables for the current rules to handle -
so we can come up with a houserule to cover this. Possibly something that
assigns a maximum speed based on aggregate size of openings in the
portal or some-such (ex. "cracks" equals 30' max speed per move
action; "holes" equals lose half speed down to 30', etc.).

I may have the maneuverability rules down wrong (much less the physics
or geometry) - so please correct me if you see an error. You can see how
much I hate to simply delete a spell (or other element) from the rules -
once you delete one thing, where should it stop?

~D