It’s LAUNCH DAY For The Pathfinder 2 Playtest!

Today’s the day! You can now download the Pathfinder 2nd Edition playtest book!

Head on over to Paizo.com to download it for free.

Its tinged with a little sadness for those of us who preordered the hard copy, as issues with Amazon means that our copies have been delayed by an indefinite amount.

’’When Paizo was planning this year's Pathfinder Playtest, we expected to exceed our own ability to fulfill orders on a timely basis, so we decided to use Fulfillment by Amazon. Unfortunately, Amazon's reports indicate that most customers will not be receiving their orders by tomorrow's release date. They shipped 3 orders on July 28, 3 more on July 29, and no orders on July 30 or 31. Today, they have shipped almost 10% of the outstanding orders, and they are continuing to ship through the night and into tomorrow. They have so far been unable to tell us when they will complete shipping.”

However, at least the PDFs are still available for free in the meantime.

Adventure chapters are also available alongside the rule book, with the first being available today. They are as follows:

1. The Lost Star, Aug 7 - Aug 26 (Also available at Gen Con on Aug 2.)
2. In Pale Mountain’s Shadow, Aug 7 - Sep 9
3. Affair At Sombrefell Hall, Sep 10 - Sep 23
4. The Mirrored Moon, Sep 24 - Oct 8
5. The Heroes Of Undarin, Oct 9 - Oct 21
6. Red Flags, Oct 22 - Nov 4
7. When The Stars Go Dark, Nov 5 - Nov 18

 

[TwoSix]

Zero need? Did you miss where longbows have the "Volley 50" property, which means you take a -2 penalty to attack targets within 50 feet (most encounters take place within this distance, and it's a rare encounter that allows the opportunity to really use the full range of a longbow). This would be unacceptable in PF1, and even more so in PF2 with how important hit margin is when calculating critical hits. Point-Blank Shot seems to be the only way to mitigate that penalty, and the minimum to just do my job even without getting fancy with multishots. Perhaps fancy tricks like Double Shot and Triple Shot should be Fighter feats, that can be debated I suppose. Point-Blank Shot to achieve basic proficiency should not.

Let's imagine a different scenario, you want a Fighter good with a crossbow (for some reason). Point-Blank Shot is nice with a crossbow, but Assisting Shot seems rather lame. After that, we have Double Shot, which we can't use with a crossbow, and Triple Shot which is a modification of Double Shot. We have to wait until 8th level to get another ranged feat we can use (Incredible Aim and Slippery Shooter). The big drawback to crossbows is that reload speed. There's a feat to mitigate that, but it's a Ranger feat...

Or you follow the intent of the rule, which is that Longbows aren't great in Melee range, and you swap to something else when you're in Melee range. Being super good with particular weapons even in awkward situations isn't a general martial trait, it's a fighter trait. If you're not a multiclass fighter, you should probably take a different class feat to cover the situation where you're in melee range.

You can certainly argue that the property should be a general martial trait, not a fighter only trait, but make sure you understand the intent to give a fighter a niche that paladins, rangers, barbarians, etc., don't share.

 

[mellored]

I can't make a longbow ranger (a pretty iconic archetype) without multiclassing into Fighter.

I don't see how you get that...
Rangers can use a longbow better than any other class besides the fighter.

Or do you think Rangers should deal as much damage as fighters, while also having bonus skills?

 

[mellored]

Zero need? Did you miss where longbows have the "Volley 50" property, which means you take a -2 penalty to attack targets within 50 feet (most encounters take place within this distance, and it's a rare encounter that allows the opportunity to really use the full range of a longbow).

I like the fact that longbows are for long range and shortbows are for short range.
Otherwise, why even have 2 bows?


Though, I do agree that rangers getting crossbow feats is a bit... odd.

 

[houser2112]

Or you follow the intent of the rule, which is that Longbows aren't great in Melee range, and you swap to something else when you're in Melee range. Being super good with particular weapons even in awkward situations isn't a general martial trait, it's a fighter trait. If you're not a multiclass fighter, you should probably take a different class feat to cover the situation where you're in melee range.

You can certainly argue that the property should be a general martial trait, not a fighter only trait, but make sure you understand the intent to give a fighter a niche that paladins, rangers, barbarians, etc., don't share.

The longbow is an iconic ranger weapon. The shortbow (the best way to not run into Volley BS without multiclassing) is an iconic rogue, bard, or horse archer weapon. I agree that fighters should be supreme at fighting, but rangers should be able to at least achieve basic competency with ranged weapons (and TWF, but I haven't looked at that much), and PF2's ranger can't.

I don't see how you get that...
Rangers can use a longbow better than any other class besides the fighter.

Or do you think Rangers should deal as much damage as fighters, while also having bonus skills?

As much? No. Being able to at least connect just as often? Yes.

I like the fact that longbows are for long range and shortbows are for short range.
Otherwise, why even have 2 bows?

Though, I do agree that rangers getting crossbow feats is a bit... odd.

It is. They made the PF1 iconic ranger a crossbow-wielding dwarf for some reason, and are doubling down on that in PF2.

 

[TwoSix]

The longbow is an iconic ranger weapon. The shortbow (the best way to not run into Volley BS without multiclassing) is an iconic rogue, bard, or horse archer weapon. I agree that fighters should be supreme at fighting, but rangers should be able to at least achieve basic competency with ranged weapons (and TWF, but I haven't looked at that much), and PF2's ranger can't.

You don't do your argument any favors when you attempt to turn "+2 bonus within 50'" into "basic competence". I'm aware of how valuable a +2 bonus to hit is with PF2's crit system, but equating a situational bonus with competence is hyperbolic.

 

[Reynard]

It is. They made the PF1 iconic ranger a crossbow-wielding dwarf for some reason, and are doubling down on that in PF2.

No more odd that D&D's iconic ranger being a twin scimitar wielding goth elf for literal decades. I don't think we should bag on Paizo too much for trying to diversify the Tolkienisms a little.

 

[mellored]

I agree that fighters should be supreme at fighting, but rangers should be able to at least achieve basic competency with ranged weapons (and TWF, but I haven't looked at that much), and PF2's ranger can't.

Sure they can. Again, Rangers are the second best bow class in the game.
And again, i'm perfectly happy with Longbows and Shortbows being functionally different, rather than one just being flat superior.

And both classes get a lot of the same Two weapon feats.

As much? No. Being able to at least connect just as often? Yes.

Then a ranger can just use a shortbow and call it a longbow. You will connect just as much, and have less damage.
Quickdraw even lets you swap.

The longbow is an iconic ranger weapon.
<snip>
They made the PF1 iconic ranger a crossbow-wielding dwarf for some reason, and are doubling down on that in PF2.

Well... then longbows are not the iconic ranger weapon in PF.


Though really, I don't see anything breaking if you let the ranger take the fighter bow feats, or letting the fighter take the ranger's crossbow feats. So if you really want a longbow ranger with fighter feats, then go ahead.
Most other class feats can probably be mixed as well.

 

[Jer]

Though really, I don't see anything breaking if you let the ranger take the fighter bow feats, or letting the fighter take the ranger's crossbow feats. So if you really want a longbow ranger with fighter feats, then go ahead.

But given that this is a playtest, fiddling with the rules this way is probably not the best approach. Better would be to a) run the playtest adventure to make sure that it's actually going to be an issue and then b) provide that feedback to Paizo that this is an aspect of the Ranger design that seems flawed via their playtest surveys.

It may well be that someone involved forgot that there was supposed to be a feat that allows the Ranger to ignore the "Volley 50" tag on the longbow. Or that they didn't realize how those rules would interact. Or just weren't thinking about how important that iconic longbow use was for a Ranger and hadn't considered it all. Or some other explanation.

There's a reason why this is the "Pathfinder 2 Playtest" and not the "Pathfinder 2nd edition". There are a lot of things like this that are minor in the grand scheme of things but very important for certain audiences that you will only catch in a mass playtest looking at the whole game rather than in small playtests that are focused on mechanics.

 

[Reynard]

There's a reason why this is the "Pathfinder 2 Playtest" and not the "Pathfinder 2nd edition". There are a lot of things like this that are minor in the grand scheme of things but very important for certain audiences that you will only catch in a mass playtest looking at the whole game rather than in small playtests that are focused on mechanics.

This ^^^ is super important. It is a PLAYtest. People should probably restrain themselves from tweaking rules and theory theorycrafting and actually play. At least build a couple dozen PCs of various levels and class/ancestry combinations. Learn the game. Use it. Test it. Report it.

 

[Morrus]

This ^^^ is super important. It is a PLAYtest. People should probably restrain themselves from tweaking rules and theory theorycrafting and actually play. At least build a couple dozen PCs of various levels and class/ancestry combinations. Learn the game. Use it. Test it. Report it.

Well, people can do what they want. But yeah, that’s useless playtest feedback. Play the games as written and answer the periodic playtest questions.