Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[Humanaut]

Generally I'm running with Aboyd here. In 30 years of DnD I've never had a Wal-Mart magic item shop. As a player or DM, and our games never suffered.

Now if we as PC's got magic items and eventually wanted to sell one, it seems to reason that others in the world would come to the same situation and there would be a small market for magic.

These generally took place in larger cities, in the Wizards Guild, and was a chore to buy/sell, heck - even to get IN. You never get full price for magic you sell, and are never guarenteed to find what you want. Potions and scrolls being easier. Sometimes you'd find a shop for potions, or a smith might have a +1 sword or whatever. Clerical items easier to come by (maybe) at a large temple.

I generally go by the rule that if you want magic items, go out and FIND them. Sometimes one can gather info on a specific item, for example I had a PC once really really want a two handed vorpal sword. He was able to find info on the location of one... owned by a Death Knight... he never went for it, still had fun with his PC... who had a vampiric ring of regeneration mind you! :^)

Whatever trips your trigger, that's my game though and we have fun!

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise and you're free to play the game any way you like if you don't mind the extra work of changing stuff and your players are fine with it, too. So: happy gaming!

I don't think I came in here with the intention of having people change their game play. Initially to get an idea of other peoples thoughts, and then to defend my methods.. but I don't think anyone here is doing anything more than explaining how other peoples system wouldn't work within their game setting.

But the players should be able to find anything they want that cost less than 40gp.

I think the issue here is that these communities (regardless of size) may have a limit of (eg) 50,000gp for magic items, but due to the sheer number of items, might have several million gold pieces worth of stock. Or the counter side, have someone available that knows of and is able to create any magic item.

If this was the case in my campaign, the shop would be robbed (or attempted), and that *ahem* magical NPC with the magic item feats would be captured and put to work under armed guard.

The concept for me, or I should say my players, lends itself to a range of complications. I cannot say "for arguments' sake, every item is available, but you cannot steal it"; it detracts from the gameplay and feels like I'm breaking the rules for the benefit of the players.

All my shopkeepers have a limited number of goods and are of a certain level related to their goods (the protection of those goods). They have guards, and traps and magical wards, etc to prevent theft. The players know this and accept that there's a risk in attempting to steal what's available.

You could argue that I am able to do a similar thing for the 'all items' option, but then I'm further complicating the system to prevent the players breaking the game; so they don't get everything they want - or is that not a bad thing?

As a curiosity; how do your players know they aren't meant to or cannot steal from the shops or kidnap the item creator. Is it a verbal agreement out of game or something present in-game?

 

[Noumenon]

God forbid the fighter PC with Weapon Focus: Mercurial Longsword might have to settle for a regular longsword for a little while because that's what treasure the monster had! I'm not saying make it impossible for that PC to eventually find a cool mercurial longsword, I'm just saying that not every blacksmith/weaponsmith will have one. And just where did the fighter get the idea anyway to ask for a +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness?? The fighter didn't, the PC did after he looked at all the options available in various books. That's meta-gaming! Hey, if it works for your group, then go for it.....

"The fighter didn't, the PC did" is a kettle of fish. But the main thing I want to say is related to the Treasure Tables post Lead with the Cool Stuff. Cool has an expiration date. If you don't get that +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness into that fighter's hands right now, odds are it will be too late. The fighter will get turned to stone, or decide to take some levels in monk, or the player will decide it's just not that cool any more. Delaying the cool means there's less cool now and less cool later, like a kid who won't let himself play Skee-Ball because he doesn't want to get bored with it when he's 18.

 

[Foxworthy]

I think the issue here is that these communities (regardless of size) may have a limit of (eg) 50,000gp for magic items, but due to the sheer number of items, might have several million gold pieces worth of stock. Or the counter side, have someone available that knows of and is able to create any magic item.

If this was the case in my campaign, the shop would be robbed (or attempted), and that *ahem* magical NPC with the magic item feats would be captured and put to work under armed guard.

The rules for community wealth means that no "magic shops" exit. Their isn't one store for the players to walk into and browse [Or case]. The rules on it state that using community wealth guidelines is abstracting the search for the items. The players may find the belt of strength they are looking for in the back of a curio shop while another PC finds some scrolls to buy off the old wizard done the block. WIth the MIC adding that if you need an item extremely quickly that Gather Info checks would be needed.

Since you have no store, you have no stock. Sure if the players are looking for a specific item they could rob the person who has it, but in order to get the stock of items in the town they'd need to rob the whole town of both magical and mundane items.

Which is far beyond being able to rob a single store, and if your players are robbing cities more power to them.

The concept for me, or I should say my players, lends itself to a range of complications. I cannot say "for arguments' sake, every item is available, but you cannot steal it"; it detracts from the gameplay and feels like I'm breaking the rules for the benefit of the players.

Well for arguments sake say the items you're looking for are available rather than any item is available. The difference is that the players get the items they are looking for, and the characters don't need to know the town had any other options.

I don't know why it feels like breaking the rules [assuming 3.5 ruleset] because the DMG rules support the idea that any item under the community wealth be available [with the caveat to make certain exceptions for times of rapid growth or extreme decline]. Though the MIC adds the further caveat that if want you can make an adventure about finding a particular magic item. if it with further the story to do so.

Now 2E and before I completely agree. The game was set up far differently when it came to players gaining magic items. The game was set up that wealth was the main reward for XP, where as in 3.5 gaining wealth was just a way to be able to compete against increasingly powerful enemies.

All my shopkeepers have a limited number of goods and are of a certain level related to their goods (the protection of those goods). They have guards, and traps and magical wards, etc to prevent theft. The players know this and accept that there's a risk in attempting to steal what's available.

You could argue that I am able to do a similar thing for the 'all items' option, but then I'm further complicating the system to prevent the players breaking the game; so they don't get everything they want - or is that not a bad thing?

Well if you want to detail every shop to such a degree than more power to you. I haven't run across a 3.0/3.5 group that has thought they could rob a magic shop [though they did attempt to rob a bank, but that was in the adventure].

As for being a bad thing, I don't play in your game so I wouldn't be able to judge. Personally for me it would be a bad thing because I see no reason to house rule away the DMG rules on players finding items in towns. To me that feels like I'd be breaking the rules to benefit the GM and spite the players.

As a curiosity; how do your players know they aren't meant to or cannot steal from the shops or kidnap the item creator. Is it a verbal agreement out of game or something present in-game?

Well they did that stuff all the time in 2E and 1E but they never even brought it up in 3.0/3.5

I think that they understood that the items aren't coming from one shop but some could be coming from and old widow who's husband died from poison after an adventure and has been selling off his meager surplies to survive while another players +1 mithral chainshirt could have been found in the stores of the local barracks and the commander maybe willing to sell it to feed his own pockets.

And while both options could be expanded into adventures or stories in most cases it would be a simple side track that would just get in the way of the main plot(s) of the campaign.

Though it would work well in a more sandbox game.

 

[Noumenon]

the DMG rules support the idea that any item under the community wealth be available

But those limits are so low I never took them seriously. How are you gonna run a points of light campaign if you have to put in a large town every time a fourth-level character wants to buy something big and a small city for every eighth-level.

 

[Foxworthy]

But those limits are so low I never took them seriously. How are you gonna run a points of light campaign if you have to put in a large town every time a fourth-level character wants to buy something big and a small city for every eighth-level.

I don't really run a points of light setting, but I'm sure if you wanted the players to be able to buy items you could justify bumping the gp limits up as part of a boom period and could help make other towns worse by lowering the gp limit as a bust period.

Just like all settings though it's up to the DM to do what's best for their game.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Great points Foxworthy. I really appreciate the different view on things. I never considered that there isn't/shouldn't be magic item shops. I guess I gathered the idea of magic item shops from the games like baldur's gate and neverwinter nights that incorporate them.

But having the players have to run search and acquire scenarios within town to buy their magic items seems like more of an effort to me than setting up shops for it. But then I've gone to the trouble of setting up a system that pre-generates shops, keepers, guards, etc dependent on the city size. I just roll up and save the details that I like.

When the players enter the town, they hire a guide to take them to a specific shop/inn/guild/etc and take a look at what's on offer. This allows them to focus on the combat gaming rather than what someone so eloquently labled as 'shopping and dragons'.

This also helps with the campaign setting as the players don't get/have to look through a pile of books on magic items; they just take a look at what's on offer in the shop and buy it if they like it (and can afford it).

But then my players are kinda combat oriented; constantly. The latest example is of a trade between two groups of undead and pirates in-game that the characters stumble upon, their initial reaction is 'gold and weapons = attack everyone, try to take it all'. No stopping to ask questions of the participants.. not even to assess the danger: they're on an island between a large crypt and a pirate vessle full of unsavory characters.

Our session ended with the wizard opting to use telekinesis on the boat with the weapons (despite it having an ocupant).

Needless to say, having a shop that sells everything would have similar consequences. Much the same as having them find each specific item they're after; such as in the back of a curio shop or a wayward merchant; little stopping them just taking it. A well protected shop (of limited supply) sidesteps these issues nicely.

 

[the Jester]

One of the players is also in another group that.. for lack of a better word, criticized this approach, saying that each shop should have all items and allow players to choose what they wanted; after perusing the PHB, DMG and Magic Item Compendium.

These guys would hate my game.

 

[akbearfoot]

The assumption is that anything under the GP limit is available to purchase. If a town has a GP limit of 3,000gp then you should be able to find nearly anything you want up to that value. You can even buy really cool stuff like light mithril armor etc...

'Magic item shops' are a DM created limitation...saying u can only get magic items from a specific shop is unrealistic. That would be like me shopping for a toaster oven, but somehow I can only look for it at stores called Nappa Auto Parts. There are any number of other ways one could procure magic items. It's meant to be kept abstract, so that the DM doesn't have to detail out 980 shops and NPCs and individual inventories. Most of the time you see the party go to town and offload their treasure, then they spend a week or 2 in town looking for the things they want, most of the time any individual PC is only looking for 1 or 2 specific things. Or in the unfortunate cases they have a list of 10-15 things they want because the DM never lets any items they want be in stock, or the DM does the dreaded %(and its always small) chance roll on every single item. 1 of 2 things happens, the PCs will sit there for months if they have to until they find what they want, or the DM will force them back onto the story arc, annoying the PCs in the process because they are gaining more levels but they can't find gear that NPCs 3 levels below them get for free (of the DMG). Especially since most of the time, the PCs want items that make sense for someone to create. Stat bonus items, cloaks of resistance, magic armor, rings of protection, magic weapons are all things that anybody could deal in and find buyers/sellers.

I find the assumption that only adventurers can create magic items flawed...Unless the DM rules that killing things is the only way to get exp. NPCs can get Exp from other things, just like PCs typically can (story rewards, completing quests/goals, political intrigue etc...). Plus who's to say that Bob the 5th level wizard with 2 crafting feats doesn't occasionally go visit his cousin Daryl the next town over and help thin out the local Gnoll population.

Trying to disect character knowlege vs player knowlege is another DM cop out...It's a really really bad idea unless you want characters to keep detailed lists of every item they've ever learned about and the title/contents of every book their character ever read, every conversation with the wizard, etc...Plus it makes the players say silly things like 'I ask bob the wizard to tell me about every magic item he knows how to create, what items can I know about shopping for now?' or 'Hrmm...I'd really like to find a magic ring that somehow protects me from getting hurt' then the DM goes 'ZOMG u meta-gamed! 50 DKP minus!'


I've played in games where finding anything at all, required knowlege local checks or gather information checks. If I wanted to buy a horse I had to make 2 rolls...once for the horse and again for the tack/harness, thankfully we could find food without a roll. Shopping turned into 4 hour roll-a-thons and usually ended with the 10-15 item list I talked about earlier. The only characters who always had what they wanted were the rogues and bards because they had the social skills. Something is wrong when you have 3-4 items PER SLOT you're willing to settle for with 20k price differences and none of it is ever available...or you get the 'Oh you found someone willing to make it for you, but you have to pay for it now, and it won't be ready for 3 months' Cuz by then you'll be 9 levels higher with 100k more in unspendable gold.

We're currently doing Age of Wyrms campaign, and we've only been adventuring for like 2 months but we've gone from 1st to 11th level. Thankfully this game has much more relaxed 'shopping rules' or we'd still be waiting on those +1 swords we had comissioned at 3rd level.

 

[Foxworthy]

Great points Foxworthy. I really appreciate the different view on things. I never considered that there isn't/shouldn't be magic item shops. I guess I gathered the idea of magic item shops from the games like baldur's gate and neverwinter nights that incorporate them.

But having the players have to run search and acquire scenarios within town to buy their magic items seems like more of an effort to me than setting up shops for it. But then I've gone to the trouble of setting up a system that pre-generates shops, keepers, guards, etc dependent on the city size. I just roll up and save the details that I like.

When the players enter the town, they hire a guide to take them to a specific shop/inn/guild/etc and take a look at what's on offer. This allows them to focus on the combat gaming rather than what someone so eloquently labled as 'shopping and dragons'.

This also helps with the campaign setting as the players don't get/have to look through a pile of books on magic items; they just take a look at what's on offer in the shop and buy it if they like it (and can afford it).

But then my players are kinda combat oriented; constantly. The latest example is of a trade between two groups of undead and pirates in-game that the characters stumble upon, their initial reaction is 'gold and weapons = attack everyone, try to take it all'. No stopping to ask questions of the participants.. not even to assess the danger: they're on an island between a large crypt and a pirate vessle full of unsavory characters.

Our session ended with the wizard opting to use telekinesis on the boat with the weapons (despite it having an ocupant).

Needless to say, having a shop that sells everything would have similar consequences. Much the same as having them find each specific item they're after; such as in the back of a curio shop or a wayward merchant; little stopping them just taking it. A well protected shop (of limited supply) sidesteps these issues nicely.

Well I want to point out that the general assumption the MIC makes is that you don't have to roll unless you can't wait for the item. So if you have a day to search the town for items under the GP limit you can find it without needing rolls or mini adventures. It's just one of the things that 3.5 abstracts away to focus more on the action/story.

But of course if your players want to rob and pillage anything they can, obviously abstracting the purchase of items wouldn't be fun for them. Because you can't pillage an abstract idea. And really what's fun for them is far more important than anything else.

Now the group I play with [I don't GM anymore, not enough time] would hate choosing items from a DM created list because sometimes the DM just doesn't understand what the player feels is important. Like my characters cloak of weaponry, I'd be seriously bummed if I couldn't have gotten a cloak of weaponry because it just make smy life easier without forcing me to drop my off hand weapon everytime I need an utility item [potion, wand, bag of boulders etc] to be used.