Items in shop; everything or a limited selection?

[green slime]

I guess people just don't look at magic items in stories as being all that unique & special anymore. I must have been a DM for way too long, I'm out of touch with the modern player

No, I think you are just a subcategory of the modern player; there are others out there, with similar aspirations. It does require that the DM pays extra special care and attention to the game, and requires the players to be open-minded to a different style, and trust the DM to a greater degree. More suitable to friendly play (IMO) than organised convents and similar

Personally, I'm very fond of the ideas put forward around unlocking magical item abilities, attuning the player to the sword/armour/bracelet, rather than DnD's standard norm of treating magical items as plastic cutlery: discard when finished.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

And the rules for players to be able to buy anything under the gp limit is in the DMG.

Their is no logical magic item distrabution in the game. Even if the DM determines availability that's not logical, that's arbitary. [And for good DM's that's fine]

Logically though only the best magic items would be available because no one would logically invest their own XP to make the subpar choices.

And if logically only the best stuff is around then what harm is there letting players buy whatever they want? Cause either they buy the best stuff that is around because logically no one would make subpar items, or they buy the sub par items that may not be the best but are what they want and since they aren't as good as the best they can't be overpowered.

Logic works to support the "buy what you can find under GP Limits" as well. The main advantage to the "buy what you can find under GP limits" is that the DM doens't have to spend time making inventories for every magic item store in the world and/or spend time having the players looking around for stuff.

Unless of course the DM has fun making the inventories, and/or the players have fun searching for items.

And the rules for players to be able to buy anything under the gp limit is in the DMG.

Where does it say this? That players are allowed to buy anything under the gp limit? if it's there, I certainly must have missed it...

Their is no logical magic item distrabution in the game. Even if the DM determines availability that's not logical, that's arbitary. [And for good DM's that's fine]

Well, when rolling random magic items for determining treasure it is random, and not necessarily logical... maybe purposefully changing a few results to make more sense for the campaign and or particular place in the campaign would in fact be logical. Arbitrary implies randomness, if a DM is determining item availability based on sense and logic then it is logical, and not arbitrary.

Logically though only the best magic items would be available because no one would logically invest their own XP to make the subpar choices.

And if logically only the best stuff is around then what harm is there letting players buy whatever they want? Cause either they buy the best stuff that is around because logically no one would make subpar items, or they buy the sub par items that may not be the best but are what they want and since they aren't as good as the best they can't be overpowered.

Logic works to support the "buy what you can find under GP Limits" as well. The main advantage to the "buy what you can find under GP limits" is that the DM doens't have to spend time making inventories for every magic item store in the world and/or spend time having the players looking around for stuff.

Here's where you lose me. Using the term "best magic items" is very subjective-- what's best for your PC and best for another PC is not the same. And the fact is that there are so-called "sub-par" items out there, not every sword a paladin comes across is holy! Or maybe in your campaign there is a "Santa's Workshop" of elven paladins just mass-producing holy swords because that's the best item around...

Also, look at NPC stats-- some of them have pretty cool stuff, some of them have "sub-par" things. That's the way randomness should work, and I believe that bests suits the balance. I posted before that we once had a DM who let us "custom-buy" our items and we literally plowed through encounters that should have been challenging for our ECL. Tailoring PC's optimizes them, min/max style, makes them more powerful, and disrupts the balance. A Power Gamer in the group wanted a bow that did acid and sonic damage, because out-of-character he knew that less monsters are immune to those two damage types than to fire, cold, or electricity. To me that's meta-gaming, and I am personally against that.

I think your logic is a little off, obviously there ARE "sub-par" items out there, which "logically" means someone's making them, which "logically" means that they are available!

Then again, as always, do whatever works for your campaign. If your gaming group works as Power Gamers and min/maxers and everyone has fun then really that's all that counts. If no one wants to put in any time to flesh out certain shops or using "soft skills" to look for stuff then don't-- I'm not saying my way is the best way, but I feel that the spirit of the rules and the game does not advocate magic-item Wall-Marts.

 

[Foxworthy]

Where does it say this? That players are allowed to buy anything under the gp limit? if it's there, I certainly must have missed it...

Sorry it actually says...

Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical.

I forgot that the DMG says Most Likely Available as opposed to the more definitive Buy Anything I typed. I must have tainted my memory slightly by the suggestion in MIC that elaborate on buying magic items.

Still though, the items the players are looking for are most likely available by the DMG.

I think your logic is a little off, obviously there ARE "sub-par" items out there, which "logically" means someone's making them, which "logically" means that they are available!

Yes, it is a little off. Because the post that was in response to seemed a little off to me.

The logically point was made in opposition to the poster who stated that a DM has to use his brain before offering magic items for sale. As such the DM should logically prune the magic item charts and NPC stat blocks of the items that aren't as good choices as others. A Holy Sword isn't a good item for most players so logically no one would make it. So a DM using his brain should remove it from the game. Because any DM with imagination as the person claimed should limit his world to only the logical choices. So I decide to rebuttal the arguement with what I felt was the logical progression from his arguement.

I would never limit magical items to what I felt was logical because some players like sub par items because it gives them a way to do something they feel is neat and helps customize their character a bit more.

Also, I'm not advocating a magic item wal-mart at all. I'm advocating that magic item shops shouldn't exist at unless it's a major major city. I just believe that like the DMG and MIC suggest that players should be "most likely" able to find what they want under the GP limit.

Oh as a side note, the Holy Avenger you suggest isn't actually available to buy using the DM Guide community wealth guidelines. You would need the Planar Meteroplois sized city from the epic level handbook in order to buy it because it cost over 100,000 gp. So the Holy Avenger should really be a quest item nevertheless.

 

[green slime]

Then again, as always, do whatever works for your campaign. If your gaming group works as Power Gamers and min/maxers and everyone has fun then really that's all that counts. If no one wants to put in any time to flesh out certain shops or using "soft skills" to look for stuff then don't-- I'm not saying my way is the best way, but I feel that the spirit of the rules and the game does not advocate magic-item Wall-Marts.

The problem here being that just because a DM decides to handwave the purchasing effort of obtaining a new minor magical item, does not imply the existance of magic-item Wall-Marts, and stating that it does so and similarly stating that it is against "the spirit of the rules", is somewhat insulting.

Consider if you would calling handwaving a week's travel along a well patrolled highway in a civilised area as being against the spirit of the rules. No sane DM would make such a claim. What about handwaving all the bodily functions over a weekly period? If people feel that a certain activity is not enjoyable, certain details are too much detail, or certain aspects reduce their enjoyment, then surely, it cannot be against "the spirit o the rules" to exclude those aspects, or to merely glaze over them with a sentance or three describing the process.

The whole argument about Magic-items Walmarts is a strawman: No DM I have met on or off line, has had major items automatically available. The only real difference being one of scale (what constitutes a major item, some campaigns consider CLW potions rare and wonderous, others Holy Avengers), not either/or on/off. The extent to what hoops you want your players to leap through to achieve their intended goal.

When I go as a player, I want an exciting co-operative story to unfold, and while that may certainly occur in a marketplace/bar/city, By the time you're at 14th level, and looking to upgrade your bracers, and purchase a new cloak, being told for the umpteenth time that a City as Greyhawk has no one willing to sell me a scroll with a 6th level spell, and that I need to make 27 opposed skill check die rolls and roleplay interaction with 32 NPC's over 2½ hours of valuable game time, in order to get a benefit so I can actually have a use for the loot I have obtained, I'd be inclined to tell the DM to shove his game in a dark, smelly orifice.

Downtime is nice. It allows these interactions to be arranged before the real face time, so the plot can actually move forward during the game.

 

[aboyd]

I'm going to quote about 5 or 6 posts here, so I apologize up front for the length. I'll try to be brief (and interesting), relatively speaking.

Cool has an expiration date. If you don't get that +1 Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword of Quickness into that fighter's hands right now, odds are it will be too late. The fighter will get turned to stone, or decide to take some levels in monk, or the player will decide it's just not that cool any more.

I've been in campaigns where I wanted things that the DM stifled or undermined, and I agree that it sucks. However, these things must involve some give & take. What a player thinks is cool shouldn't be able to trump what a DM thinks is cool. Sometimes things run counter to the DM's game world; other times they fit perfectly. So if the DM won't give out a "Holy Keen Mercurial Longsword" right away, to me that's fine. If it's not fine for you, that's OK too -- I post not to counter your point, but more to note that there is no "right" way to have fun.

I've played in games where finding anything at all, required knowlege local checks or gather information checks. If I wanted to buy a horse I had to make 2 rolls...once for the horse and again for the tack/harness, thankfully we could find food without a roll. Shopping turned into 4 hour roll-a-thons and usually ended with the 10-15 item list I talked about earlier.

This may be a case where anecdote is not evidence. Other DMs may be much better at that than your DM was. I'd say I'm mediocre at this stuff at best, yet even I don't have 4 hour shop-a-thons, so I don't think you can tie that bad experience to what people are proposing in this thread.

I am sorry you had that unenjoyable gaming experience, however.

Well if you want to detail every shop to such a degree than more power to you. I haven't run across a 3.0/3.5 group that has thought they could rob a magic shop [though they did attempt to rob a bank, but that was in the adventure].

In my current campaign, the adventuring group is largely chaotic neutral in alignment. They have murdered each other, robbed NPCs, betrayed quest-givers, and yes, discussed (but not carried out) taking a "protect the caravan, protect the trade route" quest simply to easily coup-de-grace the merchants in their sleep and steal everything.

And I am actually fine with their play style, but it means that I have to be one of the guys in this thread who does care about how magical items are acquired. The players necessitate such thinking. I hope nobody would suggest I'm a sucky DM simply for coming up with a solution that works for all of us.

I've gone to the trouble of setting up a system that pre-generates shops, keepers, guards, etc dependent on the city size. I just roll up and save the details that I like.

This also helps with the campaign setting as the players don't get/have to look through a pile of books on magic items; they just take a look at what's on offer in the shop and buy it if they like it (and can afford it).

Yeah. My players would actually probably like more of that. They have little interest in boring roll-to-see-if-it-exists scenarios, but they also have little interest in just pulling up to the magic item drive-thru. When I gave them the name "Xylas" and told them that he was the weapons-master in town who sold exotic weapons out of his home (the weapons actually adorning his walls, some from his adventures when he was younger) the players ate it up. They didn't find it stifling or annoying that they had to "uncover" the exotic weapons dealer. At least I don't think they were annoyed -- they were smiling, chatting up Xylas for quest info, and asked for him by name the next time they were in town. So I think there is room for our kind of thinking, DarkelvenSFi.

No one here has advocated "one true way" of buying magic items.

I think Oryan has the impression that some have at least hinted that. I decided to post this long thing simply because I felt a bit of what Oryan probably felt (I'm guessing) and I wanted to drop in one more post to advocate his point of view. We geeks aren't the most socially agile group of people; sometimes we have to be advised to bathe before going out to play D&D with friends. So it isn't far-fetched to suggest that some might have accidentally presented their point of view as the "one true way." I don't know who gave off that vibe because frankly I'm too lazy to go back and re-read it. That's probably for the best, as calling out a particular person most likely wouldn't keep the peace.

Logically though only the best magic items would be available because no one would logically invest their own XP to make the subpar choices.

And if logically only the best stuff is around then what harm is there letting players buy whatever they want?

It's a false assumption. Or at least, I don't see the logic that drives us to the conclusion that only the best stuff exists. It is hugely difficult & dangerous to make the best stuff, so it's rare, not common. We've all seen The Princess Bride. We all know what the six-fingered man did. If your job is to arm dangerous people, your life expectancy gets shorter the better you are at arming them. To deliberately participate in that danger requires a particularly brave individual who knows how to plan for contingencies. Or at least, that's my game world... if for no other reason than my players are the ones who will pillage the unwary.

Unless of course the DM has fun making the inventories, and/or the players have fun searching for items.

Yeah, that.

 

[preacher]

I find the "how does your character even know item X exists?" questions particularly troubling and perplexing. This implies that everything a character knows or learns about comes from actual play. As in everything, it depends on the campaign, but surely it's not a great stretch of the imagination to imagine he could have learned of it from friends, relatives, books, other adventurers, etc. Is the sum of everything my character knows bounded by things he has seen in the course of an adventure? Or in other words, if the DM didn't show it to him, does that mean he doesn't know about it? (And while I can see argument for using Knowledge skill checks, that offers unfair advantages to certain classes and builds.)

Of course, this is more problematic since MIC, which increased the amount of available items, and I've seen players flick through it like a shopping catalogue... but does that really harm the game? They seem to be having fun.

What troubles me about this is the way some DMs seem to be waiting to catch players out with this, and pounce on them for metagaming. That creates an adversarial relationship between DM and player, rather than a cooperative one, and that isn't something that would suit my play style. I've also found some of the comments made about "players buy what they like" games a little condescending, but perhaps they weren't intended that way.

The idea of the "magic item shop" has been bypassed elegantly and eloquently by previous posters. I find a lot of value in the "gp as xp" theory, and the supporting arguments were very helpful. There isn't a magic item shop with row upon row of shelves, the character just happens to come across the item the player chose. Simple, elegant. Sometimes you want to roleplay out the commerce, or make an item part of an adventure, but our group has found it becomes old very quickly if you have to do it every time. If D&D items scaled to character level more readily, it would be less of an issue, but most PCs upgrade or replace their items frequently. We don't get enough time to play as it is, so spending too much of our gaming time on a session about shopping doesn't really appeal.

However I also fully understand and appreciate the "magic is rare" argument. If you have to put in effort to find it, you value it more. I've certainly sat there at the gaming table, jotting down the loot, and inwardly groaned because none of those potentially interesting items was the perfect upgrade or replacement for something my character had. I sometimes feel like I'm playing EverQuest again, not D&D, making sure every slot has a decent item and upgrading as soon as I can afford it. So yes, if I have to sweat a little to get just the right item, I may value it more. My only trouble with this is that by the time I get it, I may no longer want or need it. At which point we're back to the "lead with the cool stuff" approach a previous poster mentioned. A good DM can find a decent balance though.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Some groups may roleplay out every purchase, and some may handwave it all. But some of us do a bit of both, and I guess I'm just a bit rankled that although the handwavers don't look down on me for roleplaying, the roleplayers do seem to look down on me for handwaving. Perhaps that's just down to poorly worded comments, or my misunderstanding of them.

Anyway, now I'm just reiterating points already made by others, so I'll stop here, except to add that this is an interesting thread and I've gained from reading it. Every group will strike the balance between effort and reward differently, but there have been some really good suggestions on how to handle this, from a number of different perspectives. I've been making notes.

 

[Oryan77]

The logically point was made in opposition to the poster who stated that a DM has to use his brain before offering magic items for sale.

Apparently you completely missed my entire point. First of all, I hope you'd use your brain before doing anything...don't just limit it to offering magic items for sale

What I'm saying is, if a DM is running his own world, it's more rewarding when you establish your own ideas rather than simply following orders from a text book. If you like the ideas from the book, that's great, run with it. But just because a book says something doesn't mean that's how every campaign should be run. It is also not a reason for players to argue with the DM and use that book as their ammo to back up their complaints.

So when I say, "use your brain first", I mean; forget about what the book says, think to yourself first if you think that would make sense. If it does, then good. If it doesn't, players should not feel like they have a right to tell you that they should be allowed to have whatever eyecandy they want. This seems to be the norm nowadays. Players don't feel special for getting a neat magic item anymore; instead, they feel insulted if they don't get the specific magic items they want.

Because any DM with imagination as the person claimed should limit his world to only the logical choices.

The main problem I have with your arguments is that it is all based on metagaming. Your opinion is all based on out of game information & out of game opinions (if players think items are useless, then only the best stuff would exist in the game).

Your 'logical' examples don't work because it is not really "logical". Sure, it's logical if you want to metagame and refer to what the rulebooks tell you & what feedback you get from players. But as far as your world is concerned in-game, is it possible for only "the best magic items" to be made without learning how to make the easy stuff first? I don't think you can build a rocket ship without first learning how to build a bottlerocket (or maybe you can, I'm no rocket scientist). Also, not everyone will be good at making the hard items, so the market might be full of more mundane items. So just because items are useless to players doesn't mean that should effect how your game world works. Anyway, we could go in circles talking about logic & D&D

Let me just point out one more thing to support what I'm saying:

You wrote:

Nothing forces a DM to use any rule in any book to play the game.

but a few sentences before that you wrote:

And the rules for players to be able to buy anything under the gp limit is in the DMG. So yes, players can reasonable expect to be allowed to buy magic items

For a lot of DMs, that exact quote does force them to use any rule in any book to play the game with players. If not, how many players are going to do what you do and throw quotes from the DMG at the DM and demand that he sell them the magic items they want? How many people groan when they hear that a DM doesn't even use magic item shops? So there is something that can force a DM to do it: players who refer to rulebooks first & the game world second.

And so people don't get huffy & puffy, I want to be clear that I don't even think it makes a game bad if there are magic item shops. If magic items are so commonplace on that world, then that makes sense. My beef is only when magic items are supposed to be rare in your campaign, but players complain because the DMG says otherwise. Like I said before, if players didn't familiarize themselves with magic items in the DMG/MIC, they wouldn't complain about squat & they'd probably love any & every item you put into the game that was somewhat useful to their PC.

 

[Oryan77]

I think Oryan has the impression that some have at least hinted that. So it isn't far-fetched to suggest that some might have accidentally presented their point of view as the "one true way." I don't know who gave off that vibe because frankly I'm too lazy to go back and re-read it

I didn't have anyone in particular in mind. I was just speaking generally from my experiences with people (online & offline). But I did see several people referring to the rulebooks for support, & I got a response when I mentioned I don't use magic items as if I was being harsh on the players. I was just pointing out that these are the reactions I always see when this topic comes up. I didn't mean to accuse anyone of saying that 'their way is the one true way'.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

I've been soaking up the different ideas in here trying to make sense of it all.

The idea of having magic shops or having players roll through search and acquire checks to find specific items (or to find someone to make the item) both seem quite similar to me now... the only difference is the play-time involved. With the magic shop, the DM has pregenerated the goods that the players could reasonably find in that town. They're effectively replacing extensive 'shopping time' and allowing for more 'story/combat time'.

For this reason, I don't really see the theme of magic item shops so much a problem; as a plausible excuse for replacing/avoiding search and acquire rolls.

In all cases, the DM decides what gaming style works for themselves and the players. Some people may approve of a heavy dose of shopping time, really enjoying the time spent.

I'd argue the that the game style itself; story based campaign vs combat focused (and any variations therein) better determine the method of magic item delivery.

The core concept each DM uses to provide magic items, it seems, comes down to the game style preferred; rather than any rules provided in the books (which are often superceeded or altered in different books).

 

[Foxworthy]

For a lot of DMs, that exact quote does force them to use any rule in any book to play the game with players. If not, how many players are going to do what you do and throw quotes from the DMG at the DM and demand that he sell them the magic items they want?

First let me repost the quote the way I orginal posted because it doesn't read the way it should when presented like that.

So yes, players can reasonable expect to be allowed to buy magic items, just like they can expect a longsword to do 1d8 damage. Unless they know the DM of the game doesn't use those rules. Nothing forces a DM to use any rule in any book to play the game.

I bolded the part of the quote that is important. It's the qualifier to the part you did quote. Basically the quote says that the players can reasonable expect for the rules to be "RAW" unless the DM informs them otherwise. And that the DM isn't forced to use the rules in the book.

The only ways for those quotes to conflict would be if the DM didn't tell the players that they changed the rules. Which is a very unreasonable thing for the DM to do. It's not just his game, and changing the rules without informing the players before hand is rude in the least and adverseral at the worst.

So to answer your question reposted here...

If not, how many players are going to do what you do and throw quotes from the DMG at the DM and demand that he sell them the magic items they want?

None. 0 Reasonable players are going to throw a DMG quote into the DM's face, because the DM was reasonable enough to inform the players that he house ruled it before it came up in game. The players being informed of the change and being reasonable understand that the DM has the right to house rule things. As reasonable people they know that if they don't like the DM's rules they don't need to play.

I actually find it a bit insulting to be accused of throwing rules in the DM's face to get my way. That would be like me asking how many DM's like you bully players into only taking the magic items you want them to take and that they don't want. It's most likely a false statement and reads like a insulting little jab to discredit the other person's point of view. I personally don't appreciate that.