Items that Grant Additional Spells Known

[Anubis]

You act as if a sorcerer would get dozens of these items. You overlook the fact that sorcerers will usually learn the more useful spells to begin with, meaning only lesser utility spells would be gained. Add to that the fact that you can still only cast so many, and I don't see any breakage at all. The limit to spells known is not their fundamental limitation or penalty, it's just part of the class. Allowing such an item is no more broken than a helm of teleportation (which allows even non-spellcasters to cast a very powerful 5th-level spell) or, say, a holy avenger.

 

[Thanee]

You overlook the fact that sorcerers will usually learn the more useful spells to begin with, meaning only lesser utility spells would be gained.

Sorcerers cannot learn all of the more useful spells...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The limit to spells known is not their fundamental limitation or penalty, it's just part of the class.

It's both... part of the class (obviously ) and their most fundamental limitation.

Compared to the wizard it's not the Pearl of Power, but rather an item, that adds a spell to the wizards repertoire, which he could then cast spontaneously (i.e. like a good cleric can cast cure spells).

Both is available via a feat already... but having it as an item does exactly that, allow to overuse it, because money is no huge limit, unless prices are extremely high!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Anybody who says that they wouldn't allow something like this in their campaign is just being dumb and unreasonable.

Making friends again?

 

[UltimaGabe]

It adds spells to the sorcerers spells KNOWN list, which is the most fundamental limit they have.

It would be fine to add one or two spells here and there, but with such an item you could easily afford dozens of lower level spells and thus retain ultimate flexibility, outshining wizards by far!

I just want to ask you something.... How, exactly, is knowing dozens of 0- and 1st-level spells going to make the Sorcerer "outshine" the Wizard?

Lower-level spells become VERY obsolete as levels increase- and no Sorcerer is going to be able to afford "dozens" of spell items until very high levels. I don't know about you, but I don't usually have hundreds of thousands of GP to throw around at 10th level.

I just don't understand your reasoning. You honestly think that an item that adds a spell known to a Sorcerer's list is more powerful than an item that lets a Sorcerer cast an item indefinitely? A Ring of Fireball, for example, cost 27,000 gp, could be cast hundreds of times a day, all doing 5d6 with a save DC of 14. Over the course of a day, if the wearer were so inclined, he could do nothing but use that item and just blow everything up, dealing hundreds of points of damage a day. A Ring of Granted Fireball, however, would be more powerful, but at absolute most, how often could a Sorcerer use it? Ten times a day? At absolute most. True, a 10d6 Fireball is more powerful than a 5d6 Fireball, but you could use the Ring of Fireball for years and years continuously without any drain of your own power. But once the Sorcerer wants to power it himself, it's suddenly a huge abuse of power. I see your logic.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If the sorcerer can power it herself, she can put much more of a blast behind it - both the level-dependent benefits and the DC's to withstand the spells will be higher. That makes a difference.

She might get that "ring of unending 5d6 fireball" and do thousands of points of damage per day, but she won't do them in one round.

She might also get a staff of fire and blast everything with "real" fireballs - with her caster level and dc. But she'll pay for every single fireball, and after 50, she has to get a new staff.

So the problem with this is a caster-powered, unlimited spell choice.

And lower-level spells aren't useless at all, even at higher levels. There are several very useful 2nd-level spells, and a lot of life-savers amongst the 3rd-level spells. One of the big disadvantages for sorcerers is that they can't have them all.....

 

[Thanee]

I just don't understand your reasoning. You honestly think that an item that adds a spell known to a Sorcerer's list is more powerful than an item that lets a Sorcerer cast an item indefinitely?

Have I said that? Don't think so.

I just said, that I believe the item breaks the class, since it takes away their most fundamental limit. And I said, that I wouldn't allow it, unless it was heavily restricted in some way.

In fact, I listed a cost in the very same post, which I would consider reasonable (twice of Pearl of Power), if I were to include such an item... which incidentally is lower than the cost of an item of unlimited usage of a spell of that level.

But once the Sorcerer wants to power it himself, it's suddenly a huge abuse of power.

I also didn't say that. I said ... see above.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Khristos]

Argh okay to reply.... The argument as to why this isnt overpowering is "essentially 0th and 1st lvl spells are not overpowering" this is true in general at the higher echelons of the game the added spell slot for 0 lvl magic wont be a game breaker.

However what about having 5 or 6 of these items for 9th lvl spells? The pearl of power is nice but it still isnt letting the wizard spontaeneously cast a spell he doesnt have already and the wizard is using a standard action to recall a spell that has already been cast. So in fact this item is more powerful than a pearl of power as it doesnt have an item activation really involved as it is listed it is a continual effect.

This item isnt exactly like the feat either as the feat has limitation as to the level of spell you can actually take. This is the trick of adjudicating items in that a player sometimes doesnt always see the can of worms that can be opened on an innocent mechanic change that can be exploited at a later time to much greater effect.

If I were the GM I would handle this the following way. Allow the items to be crafted holding only 4th lvl spells or less (arbitrarily deciding that creating items that allow such power for 5th level spells and above are "artifact quality) I would probably make them formatted as rings to boot. Yes this would balance out nicely with rings of wizardry.....

 

[Thanee]

Yes this would balance out nicely with rings of wizardry.....

I wouldn't use rings of wizardry as a comparison, since they are horribly underpowered (except maybe the 4th level version, which is okish for a sorcerer (still way underpowered for the wizard)).

But, yeah, the 4th level limit would be similar, which is what you were getting at, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Have to agree with Thanee here. Breaking a slightly underrated classes only limiting factor might easily catapult it up into the realms of brokeness... and we're not only talking about 0th and 1st level spells here. It might cost a lot, but why not afford 3-7th spells known for the sorcerer?

I played several campaigns where the DM didn't care about the clerics spells known... e.g. he allowed every additional book without checking. Even if the single spells were not broken, the huge range of choice broke the (already broken) class.

Sorcerers: Let them buy spells known for 1000gp * (spell level known)^2 and put them into your campaign. You'll see.