D&D General It's not a video game.

[Swarmkeeper]

I have yet to find a constant, fair way to threaten pcs within the framework of the game. 5e pcs are just extremely hard to kill without either flatly negating their abilities or throwing stuff at them they just don't have a chance against (like hugely overleveled enemies.)

I am defining 'challenge' as being dependent on player skill - just being less likely to win isn't more challenging. Requiring greater skill to win is more challenging. And in 5e, the amount of skill you need to master the game is piddly compared to many other games.

From the DM perspective, what difficulty knobs do you feel 5e lacks compared to past editions or compared to other games?

 

[Shiroiken]

Did the easier route make it so there was fewer XP or gold acquired? I'm imagining by "easier" there were fewer or weaker monsters to fight than had they gone another route.

The RPG in question has no meaningful treasure rewards (it's a feudal system where PCs seldom pay for anything) and experience is gained from achieving objectives. His methods actually increased the XP rewards by achieving it faster, rather than avoiding potential XP. The system is also particularly lethal, so his decisions allowed the party (especially himself) to reach the final objective with only minimal damage and resources spent, making the final challenge almost trivial.

 

[jasper]

This thread is not about aesthetics.

This thread is based on some weird stuff I see on Facebook, Reddit and even here: new players asking for specific strategy help with published 5E adventures. Not "help me build a cool character" or "how do I optimize versus devils" but literal, "how do I get past the cultists in Baldur's Gate?" or "Which Ten Towns adventures give the best loot?"

........

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Has anyone experienced this in real life? Have you ever had a player cheat at the table in this manner (reading the module beforehand or whatever)? Is it new or am I just noticing it now?

THEM DARN FREAKING NO ACCOUNT KIDS HOW DARE THEY USE THE INTERNERD TO FIND THINGS OUT.
Back in the day we had to buy our own modules or steal a peek at the DMS to discover this.

Dude, I was yelled at by half my table in high school for moving two things in D1. One guy yelled at me "Real name run the module as written." Yes you are just noticing it now, or had some very great players.

 

[Shiroiken]

People were piling up on me on another thread when I said 5e is easy mode compared to previous editions and the PCs are indeed, nearly unkillable.

I'm a bit surprised by this. Standard 5E really is designed to be "Easy Mode," since the game assumes the PCs will overcome most/all challenges presented. The only edition I found to be similar was 4E, but due to its specific design, it's not quite as obvious. However, I consider this to be a good thing, because it's much easier to add difficulty than it is to reduce it. This means that people can play/run very heroic games without having to add a bunch of god-like powers, while others can play a very lethal game with only a few modifications.

I generally run on Medium to Hard mode in 5E, largely because I don't use the encounter guidelines. My first campaign had about a dozen deaths over 17 levels of play, although only 3 of them were permanent thanks to Revivify an a pair of Wishes. My next campaign had about half a dozen, but that one was focused on levels 1-5. My most recent campaign had only 1 death over 8 levels, but came very close to a TPK during the climactic battle.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Has anyone experienced this in real life? Have you ever had a player cheat at the table in this manner (reading the module beforehand or whatever)? Is it new or am I just noticing it now?

You're seeing now more because more people are playing D&D and more of them have played more video games, so are expressing it in a more video-game like manner, but it's always happened, well, since the '80s at least, I can't speak for further back.

When I first started playing in 1989, one of the players in my original group was an ex-DM who'd read a lot of adventures, and who absolutely never spoke up when we ran one he'd read, but always tried to quietly/secretly use knowledge he'd gained. Unfortunately for him we were all kids and he was about as subtle as an anvil to the forehead, so we cottoned on pretty quick and I started asking him if he had, and if it seemed at all like he was lying, just changed stuff around in an adventure.

Later on a number of players I played with briefly did similar stuff, in the 1990s. I say briefly because I quietly dropped the ones who did this (actually only had to do that with one, the others all were passing through for various reasons).

One guy yelled at me "Real name run the module as written."

I love this ROFL.

 

[TwoSix]

I think it matters a lot how challenge-oriented your play style. If you're running a module, there's some expectation of challenge play, but plenty of groups run APs as more story/thespian oriented.

 

[Mort]

I have yet to find a constant, fair way to threaten pcs within the framework of the game. 5e pcs are just extremely hard to kill without either flatly negating their abilities or throwing stuff at them they just don't have a chance against (like hugely overleveled enemies.)

1. In "standard" 5e, there has to be more attrition. You can't just throw 1 or 2 encounters at a group and expect them to be challenged (unless, as you say, the encounters are way over CRd); but

2. You're not limited to "standard" 5e unless you want to be. Use the slow healing variant AND the longer rest variant from the DMG. Throw in some encounters where exhaustion is a thing - and suddenly 5e PCs are anything but overly resilient. Take away the death savings throws (or give them 3 but they only reset after a long rest not as soon as a PC is back up) and suddenly PCs are MORE fragile and have less resources than prior editions. And you haven't taken a single ability away from any of the players.

I am defining 'challenge' as being dependent on player skill - just being less likely to win isn't more challenging. Requiring greater skill to win is more challenging. And in 5e, the amount of skill you need to master the game is piddly compared to many other games.

This I'm quite confused by. It seems that you are saying the rules of 5e make system mastery too easy?

If not, well this actually seems fairly edition neutral and not a function of 5e. It's fairly easy to design challenging encounters for 5e, whether that's defined by likelihood of character death or not.

 

[jmartkdr2]

From the DM perspective, what difficulty knobs do you feel 5e lacks compared to past editions or compared to other games?

I'm not sure this can be solved by the dm alone. The pc's have so many resources, that giving the dm enough tools would be overwhelming.

A game like PF2 or 13th Age or 4e DnD just doesn't give the players so many different ways to stay alive.

1. In "standard" 5e, there has to be more attrition. You can't just throw 1 or 2 encounters at a group and expect them to be challenged (unless, as you say, the encounters are way over CRd); but

Even with more encounters, you have this issue, and if you genuinely run 8+ ecounters, you get a slog.

2. You're not limited to "standard" 5e unless you want to be. Use the slow healing variant AND the longer rest variant from the DMG. Throw in some encounters where exhaustion is a thing - and suddenly 5e PCs are anything but overly resilient. Take away the death savings throws (or give them 3 but they only reset after a long rest not as soon as a PC is back up) and suddenly PCs are MORE fragile and have less resources than prior editions. And you haven't taken a single ability away from any of the players.

Yes, houserules are an option. I have found that rest variants don't actually change anything, though, since the issue is that you need a lot of repetitive encounters to make the later ones interesting.

This I'm quite confused by. It seems that you are saying the rules of 5e make system mastery too easy?

Yes.

If not, well this actually seems fairly edition neutral and not a function of 5e. It's fairly easy to design challenging encounters for 5e, whether that's defined by likelihood of character death or not.

 

[Mort]

I'm not sure this can be solved by the dm alone. The pc's have so many resources, that giving the dm enough tools would be overwhelming.

Funny, I've seen this exact argument from back to at least 2e and certainly in 3e.

I've found 5e has plenty of tools for the DM without being overwhelming.

A game like PF2 or 13th Age or 4e DnD just doesn't give the players so many different ways to stay alive.

Not familiar with 13th age, but this statement is simply not true for 4e and not likely from what I've seen with my Pathfinder 2e experience.

Even with more encounters, you have this issue, and if you genuinely run 8+ ecounters, you get a slog.

Depends on the encounters and type A LOT.

Yes, houserules are an option.

while it doesn't really matter, these are not houserules - they're rules variants. Well except for eliminating death saves, but that's just eliminating a rule.

I have found that rest variants don't actually change anything, though, since the issue is that you need a lot of repetitive encounters to make the later ones interesting.

No, it means players rapidly learn NOVAing is generally a terrible idea. And encounters need not be either repetative nor overly numerous.

Yes.

OK. Though I see easier system mastery as a positive versus a negative. Especially because there is much less guilt in playing hardball with players truly familiar with the system.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Have you ever had a player cheat at the table in this manner (reading the module beforehand or whatever)?

I forgot to include a negative experience I had as a player (I DM about 99% of the time) where the DM accused me of cheating because I did something unexpected. Moved to a new town, found a new group, made a new character, fell into an AD&D pit trap. Decided while I'm down here I'd check for treasure, etc. Ended up finding a secret door that while there, the DM didn't expect anyone to find. Got accused of "reading the adventure" because why else would I check for hidden things? Since I'd just joined the group, had no idea what the DM was running or that it even was from a module. Still a terrible experience to even be accused.

So, flipside. If you're going to make your accusation or confront someone, be damn sure you're right.