D&D General It's not a video game.

[Deset Gled]

Yes, I’m aware. I’ve been playing since 1984 and seen my share of both. Perhaps it would have been better to say power gaming and metagaming like this spread and became wildly more popular with MMO culture.

I don't think it's a product of any specific culture, it's a natural consequence of TTRPGs becoming more mainstream. You see it in video games, sure. You also see it in sports. You see it in card games. You see it in kids reading "Choose your own Adventure" books and using bookmarks to backtrack to past decisions.

It's not even specific to games. You see it in car guys who built "kit" versions of supercars. You see it in fashion where people want gray market imports (or cheap knockoffs) of expensive brands. You see makeup tutorials on Youtube of how to use cheap products to mimic the looks of the stars. You see it in people who read spoilers before going to the movies.

When you get right down to it, the mentality that searching for outside help is "cheating" or "invalidates" D&D in some way is the outlier compared to normal human behavior. Its part of what makes D&D a niche hobby, and it's arguably a learned ettiquitte in addition to being a personal choice. As such, it's something that could only be less common when TTRPGS were at their least popular phase. And it's ineveitable that as D&D becomes more popular and more mainstream that players like this will become more common, because many mainstream players will bring this mainstream mentality to the game.

 

[Oofta]

I have yet to find a constant, fair way to threaten pcs within the framework of the game. 5e pcs are just extremely hard to kill without either flatly negating their abilities or throwing stuff at them they just don't have a chance against (like hugely overleveled enemies.)

I am defining 'challenge' as being dependent on player skill - just being less likely to win isn't more challenging. Requiring greater skill to win is more challenging. And in 5e, the amount of skill you need to master the game is piddly compared to many other games.

You have infinite dragons, do you not? Have the ability to limit rests? Throw in last minute reinforcements if needed?

I do 5-10 encounters between long rests, PCs regularly drop to zero HP. PC deaths are rare but that's because of player preferences. If I wanted TPKs on a regular basis it wouldn't be hard.

The game can be as hard as the DM wants.

 

[iserith]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

I think we are. I addressed what you said. I just don't agree with your generalization about how players who may have knowledge of the module are likely to behave. Particularly if the DM tells them that things may have been changed.

 

[Reynard]

I think we are. I addressed what you said. I just don't agree with your generalization about how players who may have knowledge of the module are likely to behave. Particularly if the DM tells them that things may have been changed.

You were talking about players that wanted to revisit an adventure. That is different than players trying to get a leg up by reading the "strategy guide" ahead of time.

 

[Nefermandias]

You have infinite dragons, do you not? Have the ability to limit rests? Throw in last minute reinforcements if needed?

I do 5-10 encounters between long rests, PCs regularly drop to zero HP. PC deaths are rare but that's because of player preferences. If I wanted TPKs on a regular basis it wouldn't be hard.

The game can be as hard as the DM wants.

There's a huge difference between regular TPKs and regular deaths. I would even argue that TPK is more likely to happen in 5e since the parties usually take too long to realize when a fight is out of their league.

 

[iserith]

You were talking about players that wanted to revisit an adventure. That is different than players trying to get a leg up by reading the "strategy guide" ahead of time.

I don't see any meaningful difference. Both groups of players have foreknowledge about the content of the adventure being played. Both groups can use that information as they see fit or not at all or - if the DM warns them things have been changed - work to verify their assumptions before acting on them because that's the smart play. To the extent a player who doesn't have this information can make the same exact choices, what does it matter to you, other than some sense that the players aren't surprised by the content?

 

[Oofta]

There's a huge difference between regular TPKs and regular deaths. I would even argue that TPK is more likely to happen in 5e since the parties usually take too long to realize when a fight is out of their league.

True. I haven't had a TPK for a long time, I find it boring. I have come close a few times with my current group, they aren't the most tactically astute group I've ever DMed. Fun group though, so that's not really a complaint; I'd rather have that than a group that only cares about optimization.

 

[jmartkdr2]

You have infinite dragons, do you not? Have the ability to limit rests? Throw in last minute reinforcements if needed?

I do 5-10 encounters between long rests, PCs regularly drop to zero HP. PC deaths are rare but that's because of player preferences. If I wanted TPKs on a regular basis it wouldn't be hard.

The game can be as hard as the DM wants.

None of those seem to increase the space for player skill.

 

[overgeeked]

When you get right down to it, the mentality that searching for outside help is "cheating" or "invalidates" D&D in some way is the outlier compared to normal human behavior. Its part of what makes D&D a niche hobby, and it's arguably a learned ettiquitte in addition to being a personal choice. As such, it's something that could only be less common when TTRPGS were at their least popular phase. And it's ineveitable that as D&D becomes more popular and more mainstream that players like this will become more common, because many mainstream players will bring this mainstream mentality to the game.

It spoils the surprise. It’s like reading the end if a mystery novel first. Sure, people do it, but it’s still lame and spoils the fun.

 

[Deset Gled]

It spoils the surprise. It’s like reading the end if a mystery novel first. Sure, people do it, but it’s still lame and spoils the fun.

On a personal level, I agree. But that doesn't help deal with the situation when you run into it at a table. You have to acknowledge that the person who's doing it doesn't think it's lame and spoils the fun if you want to have a dialogue about it. And, IMNSHO, treating it as a matter of etiquette rather than badwrongfun is more likely to win them over to playing your way.