It's not "Just a game"

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: It's not "Just a game"

careful there....one of the tenets that is constantly taught in the incredibly annoying "what IS art" disussions in school is that it isn't art till it has an audience outside the creator(s)

now i know you said approaches, and i am not criticizing you directly, but i feel odd when it seems everyone i talk to wants to tell me that what they do "is really an art form if you think about it", heck the tow truck driver who offloaded my last kiln told me this.

Ah yes, the incredibly annoying "what IS art" discussions... I took an entire incredibly annoying "what IS art" class once. Sigh.

Everybody wants to tell you that what they do is really an art form for a couple of reasons.

One, because they want to feel important.
Two, because as those incredibly annoying "what IS art" discussions point out, art is wherever the audience finds it.
Three, because when people truly care about and love what they do and see their selves expressed through their work, they call it art.

And I kinda think they're right.

But whatever. I just threw in my statement to suggest that what happens in a truly great game can offer real emotional depth and alter one's preceptions of the world -- and that's something art does, so "approaching art" seemed reasonable. "Approaching an LSD high" seemed less cool, though in my campaign occasionally more accurate.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

It's interesting to see someone compare D&D to acting. I've just become a professional actor, I'm presently appearing in my first play at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival and the parallels between a good gaming group and a good acting company are very obvious.

It is about generosity. It is about allowing other people their time in the spotlight, getting them to have their moment, letting the moment hold for a second, and then bringing yourself in - in a way that doesn't diminish what went before.

When you have one of those moments, say when the High Priest steps out and reveals himself to be your patron, or when despite everything you did, the princess dies...it's the ability to go with those moments and take them in a great direction so that the whole group hits a new high.

You can tell if you have been involved in a great gaming moment. Next time you and your friends are talking about D&D instead of playing it, take note of the moments that people are telling tales about. Those are the moments to cherish.

 

[mmadsen]

"Owning part of a good work somehow feels better than owning all of it. This may seem like an odd notion, but if you've ever been part of a well-formed team or a harmonious work group, you'll know what it means."

Interesting observation. Besides the "one of the team" feeling, an RPG also provides a creative outlet with a product that surprises you. You're part of the creative process, but the finished product isn't a foregone conclusion; the other people put their twists on it.

 

[Umbran]

It goes beyond the realm of a game, or even of entertainment. It approaches art.

[...major snippage...]

"Geez, dude, it's just a game. Lighten up."

Yeah, so that wasn't in the book. But I hate it when people say that. It's a way of dismissing the importance of it, the potential of it. I wouldn't put this much energy and effort into something that was "just a game". Saying that it's not important is just another way to make it impossible for the game to come alive.

Hrr. Perspective.

Importance is not set by form, it is set by function, by purpose. The statement, "It's just a hunk of rubber" is fitting if the thing is a superball out of a grocery store vending machine, but is not fitting if it's the thing keeping the space shuttle from exploding.

What is the purpose of role-playing games? Why do we play them? For entertainment of ourselves and the others at the table. That's all. The fact that said entertainment may be art is immaterial - it doesn't make the game any more, or less, important than any other form of entertainment. In that sense, it is "just a game", and it is a sense we should keep in mind. Your RPG session is no more (or less) cruicial than, say, a good night of bowling.

Not to say that there aren't people who take their bowling seriously. But, in the end, it is still a game of bowling. It's only value is in the enjoyment it brings you and your fellow bowlers. The only loss from failing to reach perfection is a small loss of enjoyment.

RPG players are not professional actors, putting on performances for hundreds or millions of viewers. They are not painters whose work will sell for millions, and influence artists for generations to come. They are Joe, Sue, and Harry, come over to enjoy a night with you. In general, they won't enjoy the extra stress brought about by striving for perfection. If you happen to have a gaming group that's the equivalent of bowling league champions, who cannot be satisfied unles they have perfect games, then perhaps such stress is called for. But normally, getting upset over a side comment about a TV show will cause more loss of enjoyment than the comment itself.

 

[Uller]

But normally, getting upset over a side comment about a TV show will cause more loss of enjoyment than the comment itself.

Absolutely. Someone shouts "They killed Kenny! You BASTARDS!" after a PC gets killed....it's funny. It may ruin a dramatic moment. But it is still funny. After 3 or 4 times it probably ceases to be so. But if you get annoyed and snap at the joker about it, everyone will just feel uncomfortable. Tis best to just take the offending player aside after the game and say "Hey...could you please cut back on the funny comments?...they're getting annoying."

It D&D just a game? No. Trival Pursuit is a game. D&D can not really be enjoyed as "just a game" where you show up, you play with little or no preparation and you go home. But is it art? No. Doesn't even approach art. Maybe it could inspire art if you take your game and use it as the basis for a novel or screen-play...but then again, so could a sport. There are some pretty good movies about baseball and football, but one would not say that football "approaches art". Maybe you enjoy it the same way you enjoy art, but one could enjoy a game of chess that way, too...becoming emmersed in every move...the strategy, the tension...

D&D is more of a hobby. My father's hobby is golf. He probably spends as much time on golf (playing, custom building clubs, watching on TV, reading about it, etc) as I do on D&D (prepping adventures, reading rules, browsing this board). Hell...he takes vacations dedicated to golfing...So D&D is not just a game in the way that golf (to my dad) is not just a sport...That doesn't mean that both golf to the golfer and D&D to the gamer shouldn't be kept in perspective. The moment that you take it too seriously and forget that it is mere entertainment is the moment that you begin to ruin the fun for the people around you. It also may be the moment that you begin to withdrawl from the real world in a rather unhealthy way (like you start neglecting your real life relationships and responsibilities to the point that you start harming yourself).

I guaruntee you that if I were a player at the table of someone with barsoomcore's perspective, I would feel uncomfortable and would probably decide not to play after the first game. If I can't socialize and unemmerse myself from the game at will, then I'm gone...

 

[mmadsen]

I think the take-home message is that a good gaming group is all on the same page. If anyone's saying "Geez, it's just a game," not everyone's on the same page.

 

[Meridian]

Squarely In Your Camp

I don't think I could have articulated my feelings regarding role-playing any better. Thank you, Barsoomcore. You've captured the essence of my thoughts regarding the statement "just a game."

That said...having recently been immersed in conflicts spawned of my own desire of "like seeking like" in finding others of the same bent of mind, I can say that I finally understand that the brotherhood of gaming does not infer homogeneity (sp?) of style. After months of contention and dissatisfaction with gaming groups whose approach mirrored more of Uller's style than Barsoomcore's, I finally found a group where I could feel completely comfortable "putting on a show for invisible millions" in my style of role-play. Finding that outlet has given me more "tolerance" for groups where the style isn't quite so seriously intended. I'm having my own brand of fun, and I can have other types of fun as long as I'm not denied my own particular brand of entertainment. Not only that, with the new outlet, I can respect others for their particular strain of role-play instead of resenting them for having fun when I'm not.

I don't mind others saying it's not art. What I find entertaining doesn't need to be vindicated by that sort of label for it to keep its value in catharsis dollars for me.

My deuce of coppers.

 

[LokiDR]

I am a bit late in on this thread, but I just fealt I had to add a few words.

I have run several games, always looking for the right combination of setting, players, and story to create a truely epic story. I found it once. By the final session, one person was in tears of the death of her character, one person wanted to kill another PC for his mis-use of an item he had, the character with the item seemed happy the story was reaching the end he wanted, and the final character was looking for a way to redeem his lost character. The drama is something I will always remember as the best campaign I ever ran.

In the two years and 5 attempts to recapture that sense, I can not find it again. And you know, that's ok. The gaming community of the area has some great stories from those silly games that we played, like overloading the blaster very well, and then botching the roll to drop it at your feet. None are more valid than any other, but the goal still remains. I would be very not happy, as a DM, if I tried to run an epic plot with great emotion and drama, and a player signed on then did nothing but break the mood. If I am running the weekly steam-blowing-off game, it is not important.

All I expect is that people will try to "play in genre". I played in a rather silly game where I was horribly violent. The GM said to me once "You can't just kill him, that would be out of genre" He was right, I knew what kind of game it was. Stick to the genre of the game, and you will be alright.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Stick to the genre of the game, and you will be alright.

I think that's one of the most pertinent points made so far. There isn't a 'correct' way to play D&D, but it is wrong to come into an epic tale of betrayal, kingdoms at war, high level romance etc and treat it like it's 'how many guards can I make go splat in one go?'

Likewise, in a hack'n'slash dungeon crawl, you're going to make everyone else uncomfortable if your character only speaks in iambic pentatmeter and details the slightest action they do. It's all a matter of perspective.

Personally, I like both types of games. Just not at the same time.

 

[barsoomcore]

Wow, people sure are smart. There's been some really great comments on this and I'm glad to hear the different perspectives.

Of course I overstated things, or at least I presented only one side of my argument. Hey, I wanted to win. Heh.

Of course D&D is a social experience, something we do in concert with friends, a way of coming together and sharing some fun times. Like bowling. And those sorts of times require jokes and "Hey, did ya see Space Ghost?" conversations. Nothing wrong with that.

But I know that it is possible for a game to become this powerful, emotional THING, where everybody is caught up in the moment and their reactions, their in-character reactions, become automatic and REAL in the same way that an actor becomes their character in a very real sense. And that's very exciting. It's not the only thing that's good about D&D, but it's my favourite part of the game. Ultimately, it's moments like that that make me go on playing.

So I was thinking about why it's so hard to reach that sort of space, why it happens so rarely, and I realized that unless EVERYONE is giving what everyone needs, NOBODY can get to that place.

So there's nothing inherently wrong with South Park jokes. But while a South Park joke is being made, the game won't take off.

I would never reprove a player for silliness or funny stuff -- ever. I'm the biggest punner/Buffy reference guy I know. And usually it's funny. Usually, I think, everyone gets a kick out of it.

But I think that I should think about what I'm doing a little more. I should look to see if maybe the other players are trying to get somewhere that I'm going to sabotage with some flip comment. Just look. Just consider. And maybe I'll find that I'm making this comment more to prove how funny I am, how smart or witty or whatever. Not to actually bring happiness to the people around me, but to make me feel good about myself. Maybe. Maybe not. But I think I should think about it.

And I thought that it was worth mentioning to other gamers. Thanks to everyone for their comments. I hope that clarifies the position I was trying to explain.