D&D 5E It's Official: I was wrong about Surprise!

[Hriston]

Let's say you think there's a Shadow Monk hiding behind a rock, getting ready to kill you. There isn't, but there's an assassin aiming a bow at you from the second-floor window. In this scene, you cannot be surprised even though the threat you thought you imagined was illusory. In fact, you may never even know that the assassin who fired the bow at you wasn't the same person as the Shadow Monk you had deduced to be present earlier; as far as you're concerned, he probably just teleported up to the window right before firing at you. The only thing that matters as far as surprise is concerned is whether you "notice a threat," or as I've called it, are "in kill mode."

I'm not sure about all the non-bolded stuff you have. It sounds like you're saying you think the PC would be surprised in this scenario because the threat wasn't where he expected it to be, but that's not how I would rule it. At best that's just an attack from an unseen attacker, which grants advantage to the attacker.

Imagining a threat is not the same as noticing a threat. You actually can't notice something that isn't really there because noticing requires verifying the presence of something with your senses. You can't sense something that isn't there. Even if you think you have, you haven't, not really. The surprise rule doesn't say that someone who doesn't imagine a threat, or doesn't think they've noticed a threat is surprised. No, it actually says that someone who doesn't notice a real threat is surprised. I think your interpretation that surprise is caused by the lack of a certain mental state is leading you to disregard the rule in cases in which it would clearly apply. Of course, you are free to do this, but all of this has given me an idea:

A character flaw that gives a character immunity to surprise because the character has delusions of constantly being hunted by an imaginary pursuer, that he is convinced is around every corner. Regularly incurring some level of exhaustion seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Also, what of mixed-alignment parties in which all members are not to be entirely trusted? Such characters could very reasonably be construed as a potential threat, which would require other party members to watch their backs. Would having such members on board keep the party from being surprised?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Also, what of mixed-alignment parties in which all members are not to be entirely trusted? Such characters could very reasonably be construed as a potential threat, which would require other party members to watch their backs. Would having such members on board keep the party from being surprised?

Maybe so, but if that level of constant distrust exists in the party it should drive them psychotic over time. In short, I think the suggestion of applying the Exhaustion rules would be very appropriate in such a party.

I can imagine it happening occasionally, when you team up with one of your arch enemies (ObDresden Files: Skin Game!) in order to achieve a short-term objective. In such a situation, you can lose initiative but you cannot be surprised... you also can't keep it up for more than 8 hours a day or 3 days in a row without me imposing a level of Exhaustion on you.

 

[Uller]

If a pc notices a kobold and not the dragon he is not surprised but he still cant act against the dragon unless he has some in game reason to know the dragon is there. On his turn he can attack the kobold and not much else. If the dragon won init it can attack the pc. If not the pc (alerted to dnager by the kobold) gets to act, probably will attack th kobold or move to a defensive position if he presence of the kobold makes him suspect something more dangerous is in the area, then the dragon goes. If the dragon is invisible or hidden it gets advantage on its attacks. I this problematic for some folks?

 

[Kaychsea]

I see the problem as follows, but it's insufficiently awkward to be a deal breaker for me.

If there was no kobold and you were wandering about unaware that there was a dragon (but probably worried that there was something): Surprise! And a face (or back) full of flame.
If your attention is focussed on the kobold and you are unaware of the dragon: no surprise, but probably a face/back full of flames just for giggles.

It makes the man under the wagon ambush less effective than a plain road ambush.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If a pc notices a kobold and not the dragon he is not surprised but he still cant act against the dragon unless he has some in game reason to know the dragon is there. On his turn he can attack the kobold and not much else. If the dragon won init it can attack the pc. If not the pc (alerted to dnager by the kobold) gets to act, probably will attack th kobold or move to a defensive position if he presence of the kobold makes him suspect something more dangerous is in the area, then the dragon goes. If the dragon is invisible or hidden it gets advantage on its attacks. I this problematic for some folks?

Not for me, but yes, for some folks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Anyone who has ever been in the military or otherwise been trained for actual combat knows how exhausting it is to be at "full readiness" for extended periods of time. You not only tire, but start to actually create sensory input. "Ready" goes to "paranoid" very quickly and paranoid is even more problematic than "relaxed." The way most gamers just assume a room by room sweep with no consideration for what that means is both amusing and a little sad. (it is no different for overland travel; if you have never had to trailblaze through difficult terrain for miles on end while carting weapons and supplies it easy easy to say stuff like, "I sleep in my armor.")

On the other hand, when one really goes backpacking in the real world, one puts all of their food into a bag, ties a rope to it, and hangs it from a high branch so that bears cannot get to it. It's not something players often describe at gaming tables when discussing camping for the night.

There are a lot of little things that people would do different if they were really there and would really have to do, even though they do not describe it for the game in detail (or tend to hand wave away). Sleeping in armor? Not really a problem from what I can tell. In the mountains of Afghanistan, I would suspect that soldiers sleep in their body armor. And, they probably do not take off their boots in case they are awakened in the middle of the night. They probably have some light gear on them and a weapon close at hand.

In the well defended camps, I suspect that this is not often the case.


But getting back to mental state, I think it is not unreasonable that PCs are in a heightened sense of awareness while actually exploring (i.e. moving through) a dungeon. Unless the dungeon corridors go for miles and merely go for at most a few hundred feet each, I don't find it unreasonable that PCs are alert for that entire time. If they take a short rest, someone can be on guard. But most of the PCs should not still be in a heightened sense of awareness. They are busy doing other tasks. They are still alert, but not hyperalert.

So I agree that PCs should not be at full readiness for extended periods of time, but while moving through a dungeon? Sure. They'd be at full readiness then.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Are you kidding? Adventurers leave their food out on purpose because they WANT to fight bears, for the XP.

 

[Reynard]

But getting back to mental state, I think it is not unreasonable that PCs are in a heightened sense of awareness while actually exploring (i.e. moving through) a dungeon. Unless the dungeon corridors go for miles and merely go for at most a few hundred feet each, I don't find it unreasonable that PCs are alert for that entire time. If they take a short rest, someone can be on guard. But most of the PCs should not still be in a heightened sense of awareness. They are busy doing other tasks. They are still alert, but not hyperalert.

So I agree that PCs should not be at full readiness for extended periods of time, but while moving through a dungeon? Sure. They'd be at full readiness then.

A few hundred feet outside is a lot different than a few hundred feet in the dark with danger potentially behind every door and around every corner. Here's an exercise anyone can do: find an abandoned mental hospital near your town (seriously; they are everywhere -- I have one literally 5 minutes from my house) and sneak into one of the larger buildings in the middle of the night. Explore all night, ransacking every room you come across. Try not to get caught by the police or cause too much trouble with the homeless people inside, and never mind the spiders, rats and bats.

Extra points if you hike for three days to get there first.

 

[KarinsDad]

A few hundred feet outside is a lot different than a few hundred feet in the dark with danger potentially behind every door and around every corner. Here's an exercise anyone can do: find an abandoned mental hospital near your town (seriously; they are everywhere -- I have one literally 5 minutes from my house) and sneak into one of the larger buildings in the middle of the night. Explore all night, ransacking every room you come across. Try not to get caught by the police or cause too much trouble with the homeless people inside, and never mind the spiders, rats and bats.

Extra points if you hike for three days to get there first.

How many people reading these posts do you think are adventurers?


Of course, us commoners can't walk up and down mountains, swim mighty rivers, wrestle crocodiles, and still have perfect hair. Or at least be ready for a fight.

 

[Hriston]

But getting back to mental state, I think it is not unreasonable that PCs are in a heightened sense of awareness while actually exploring (i.e. moving through) a dungeon. Unless the dungeon corridors go for miles and merely go for at most a few hundred feet each, I don't find it unreasonable that PCs are alert for that entire time. If they take a short rest, someone can be on guard. But most of the PCs should not still be in a heightened sense of awareness. They are busy doing other tasks. They are still alert, but not hyperalert.

So I agree that PCs should not be at full readiness for extended periods of time, but while moving through a dungeon? Sure. They'd be at full readiness then.

This is why I posted up thread that I don't think that stated levels of alertness have much bearing on whether or not a creature is surprised. Whether you call it "on alert," or "kill mode," or "full readiness," the game only has one way for characters to raise their level of awareness mechanically within the normal rules, and that's to travel at slower than a fast pace so as not to incur the penalty to passive perception that comes with a fast pace. Other than this, the Observant feat grants a bonus to passive perception which can help prevent surprise by making it easier to notice hidden creatures, and then there's the Alert feat, which grants immunity to surprise except when unconscious. So it seems that throughout the game, whether you're trekking through the wilderness, or exploring a dungeon, or taking a short rest, the default level of awareness, or alertness, or readiness is that which is represented by your normal passive perception score. When creatures let their guard down they travel fast, sacrificing their passive perception because they aren't anticipating a threat around every corner. To give characters the option to gain immunity to surprise whenever it suits them by declaring that they suspect a threat or are on alert devalues the Alert feat and the investment that other characters have made in Wisdom and perception.