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I've finally figured out why 3rd edition bugs me

As an experienced DM/player, I appreciate the more crunch-heavy approach to the 3e books, but I think I would have been done a disservice if I had started with them. The fluff of previous editions was what captured my imagination. Now I tend to skim over that stuff and look for the numbers. In sum, I think the 3e approach makes for better reference/instruction books for the game, but I wonder/worry how attractive it makes the game appear to newbies who are trying to decide if it's fun in the first place.

MC
 

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Turjan

Explorer
Magus Coeruleus said:
As an experienced DM/player, I appreciate the more crunch-heavy approach to the 3e books, but I think I would have been done a disservice if I had started with them. The fluff of previous editions was what captured my imagination. Now I tend to skim over that stuff and look for the numbers. In sum, I think the 3e approach makes for better reference/instruction books for the game, but I wonder/worry how attractive it makes the game appear to newbies who are trying to decide if it's fun in the first place.

This is a very good point. The 3E books are the clearly superior rulebooks, but they fail to communicate why it is a great thing to play this game in the first place. For a group of complete beginners (DM + players) the entry barrier is very high.

I still dream of a PHB presented as a mix of the two Cook's: clear and concise rules with a bit of atmosphere as an anchor for the memory.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Flavour books in 3E:

- FRCS: "The Western Heartlands cover a vast area between the Storm Horns of Cormyr and the Sword Coast south of Waterdeep, from the Lizard Marsh in the northwest to the Lonely Moor on the fringes of Anauroch in the northeast, down to Beregost and Green Fields in the southwest and Easting on the border of the Dragon Coast in the southeast.
"... The Western Heartlands welcome ambitious adventurers. A dozen crumbled empires have sought to conquer or dominate the region, leaving behind fortifications built upon by waves of subsequent would-be monarchs. Others left behind treasure troves, high and perilous magic, or both. Unlike the densely packed regions in the Heartlands and the North, the Western Heartlands require long stretches of overland travel between destinations -- but at least no one freezes en route."

- Magic of Faerun: "Faerun blossoms with a nearly infinite number of sites of power. From swamps to spring-fed lakes, from bustling city squares to serene private gardens, from statues to remote groves to signposts at major intersections -- these are the remarkable places of Faerun, the ones that people can never forget, that serve as a crossroads to the explorers traveling across the land."

- OA: "Of all the elemental forces that make up the universe, the most powerful and the most difficult to control is the one that lies between and joins the others: Void. Most shugenjas [sic] can call upon and direct only the individual forces of specific elements, while wu jen use them all. But Void disciples understand that everything in the world contains all the basic elements, held together by the least tangible essence. Void is like the silence between notes of music, giving rhythm and shape to the whole. To those who understand the relationship of Void to all other things, and who have the innate ability to personally perceive that relationship, distance and form become inconsequential."

- Eberron CS: "It rises out of the mist to the south of Khorvaire, beyond Shargon's Teeth and the Thunder Sea. Today, Xen'drik is a continent of secrets and mystery, a wild place full of promise and danger. In the distant past, Xen'drik was home to a great civilisation of giants, and the remains of these kingdoms hide within the dense jungles of the continent. Giants of all types still roam the jungles and mountains of Xen'drik, but they are primitive and disorganised compared to the society of the distant past. The elves of Aerenal also trace their origin to these mysterious shores, and the dark-skinned elves called drow still live among the ruins of the giant civilisation."

Etcetera. Tons of the stuff out there.
 

Mark_Aurel

First Post
Divorcing the rules from flavor text makes it a lot easier to adapt said rules to different settings, as you get a minimum of preconceived notions of how to apply them or how things 'should' be.

I may want a campaign where my characters go search for special quills, I may want a campaign where it's easy to shop for such, I may want a campaign where scrolls are scribed with blood and dust from fine gems and nothing more special than that, or I may want a campaign where scrolls are scribed with special high-quality quills on similarly special parchment, with no magical ingredients. On an off day, I may allow scrolls to be scribed on napkins.

Of course, there's still flavor in 3e; the illustrations certainly hint at a specific D&D-ish genre, and even that might be too much for some.
 

Turjan

Explorer
hong said:
Flavour books in 3E: [snip]
Etcetera. Tons of the stuff out there.

We had those in 2E, too :). As I said, I was talking about all those people who never see anything else than the PHB.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to have the same stuff as in 2E. Just look at d20 books like the "Secret College of Necromancy" (by "Zeb" Cook and Wolfgang Baur). I felt the strong urge to take a big red pencil and shorten the damn thing by at least one third, until I had a closer look at the rules and saw that it was not worth the effort.

Something in between would be nice.
 

Turjan

Explorer
Mark_Aurel said:
Divorcing the rules from flavor text makes it a lot easier to adapt said rules to different settings, as you get a minimum of preconceived notions of how to apply them or how things 'should' be.

I'm still not convinced that D&D as presented in the PHB is really that portable to fundamentally different settings or styles. As you have to rewrite vast portions anyway, the portability effect is not an issue, IMHO.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Turjan said:
I'm still not convinced that D&D as presented in the PHB is really that portable to fundamentally different settings or styles. As you have to rewrite vast portions anyway, the portability effect is not an issue, IMHO.

However, it's not "fundamentally" different settings or styles we're talking about. Eberron is a huge leap for D&D - despite all the D&Disms it uses, there's a lot of things that are different as well.

AD&D 1e tended to assume a mediaeval/Dark Ages setting, whilst Forgotten Realms and Eberron are very different in tone. Where traditional Greyhawk was mired in superstition, such things are not the case in later settings and the more 'enlightened' wizards have a much better idea of how magic actually works.

Cheers!
 

Turjan

Explorer
MerricB said:
However, it's not "fundamentally" different settings or styles we're talking about. Eberron is a huge leap for D&D - despite all the D&Disms it uses, there's a lot of things that are different as well.

AD&D 1e tended to assume a mediaeval/Dark Ages setting, whilst Forgotten Realms and Eberron are very different in tone. Where traditional Greyhawk was mired in superstition, such things are not the case in later settings and the more 'enlightened' wizards have a much better idea of how magic actually works.

Cheers!

Well, I don't know Eberron firsthand, but all I heard reminds me more of standard D&D with trains and sentient golems *shrug*. It's nowhere as different as, e.g., Dark Sun, a 2E setting.

The Forgotten Realms are also a very "modern" setting as far as their tone is concerned. As this was more or less the "official" 2E setting, we should take this as the basis for discussion, IMHO.
 

Mark_Aurel

First Post
Turjan said:
I'm still not convinced that D&D as presented in the PHB is really that portable to fundamentally different settings or styles. As you have to rewrite vast portions anyway, the portability effect is not an issue, IMHO.

I didn't say 'fundamentally' different. Just different. If I want something that's 'realistic, grim and gritty,' I'll go play with Chaosium's system or something.

Tying the core D&D rules too much up with flavor text as indicated in the topic initially would make those rules that much harder to adapt to specific D&D settings with different flavors, or even to your own homebrew. There's a lot of D&D and d20 settings out there.

Conjuring up a specific image of how things 'should be,' as the 2e flavor text often did, tends to limit the imagination rather than stimulate it IMO.
 

Turjan

Explorer
Mark_Aurel said:
I didn't say 'fundamentally' different. Just different. If I want something that's 'realistic, grim and gritty,' I'll go play with Chaosium's system or something.

Tying the core D&D rules too much up with flavor text as indicated in the topic initially would make those rules that much harder to adapt to specific D&D settings with different flavors, or even to your own homebrew. There's a lot of D&D and d20 settings out there.

Conjuring up a specific image of how things 'should be,' as the 2e flavor text often did, tends to limit the imagination rather than stimulate it IMO.

I suppose that's why AD&D 2E had so few settings, and all of the existing ones were the same ;).

Edit: Okay, all snarkyness aside, I just say it again: I don't want pages and pages of flavour text in the PHB, but just a little spin on the imagination. The point is that I find it easier to learn the rules with something like that as a fixed point for my memory. I don't have any problems with changing the "fluff" for different purposes/settings.
 
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