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Jack Vance, Dying Earth, and the Primer of Practical Magic
- Thread starter redkobold
- Start date
drnuncheon
Explorer
One of the things I loved about the Dying Earth RPG was that the social mechanics were as detailed as the combat ones. If I were going to try for a DE feel in D&D, I'd definitely want to have 'social combat' rules. The debate rules in Dynasties and Demagogues might be a start. Social combat feats are a must. ("I'll distract him with my 'Obfuscatory Reference' feat.")
More things to do:
- Remove paladins. In fact, remove alignments totally - everyone is morally bankrupt anyway, so why bother?
- Heavily encourage use of the Rogue class. In fact, pretty much everyone should be a rogue, unless they're a wizard. And even if they're a wizard they're probably a rogue.
- Remove standard magical items and spells. Everything Has A Name. If a spell doesn't have a wizard's name attached to it - or at least a few good adjectives - then how are you going to know it's good enough to use?
In fact, that would be a great way to get some lesser-used spells in there. Forget magic missile and fireball - Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter is far more Vancian-sounding than those, and far more in theme with the books for that matter. (You might want to have a large number of spell sources to choose from before you take this step.) If you absolutely have to add in some of the old spells, rename them - but your playes will invariably still call 'Saandoval's Evocation of Bursting Flame' fireball, so it's best to just leave them out.
More things to do:
- Remove paladins. In fact, remove alignments totally - everyone is morally bankrupt anyway, so why bother?
- Heavily encourage use of the Rogue class. In fact, pretty much everyone should be a rogue, unless they're a wizard. And even if they're a wizard they're probably a rogue.
- Remove standard magical items and spells. Everything Has A Name. If a spell doesn't have a wizard's name attached to it - or at least a few good adjectives - then how are you going to know it's good enough to use?
In fact, that would be a great way to get some lesser-used spells in there. Forget magic missile and fireball - Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter is far more Vancian-sounding than those, and far more in theme with the books for that matter. (You might want to have a large number of spell sources to choose from before you take this step.) If you absolutely have to add in some of the old spells, rename them - but your playes will invariably still call 'Saandoval's Evocation of Bursting Flame' fireball, so it's best to just leave them out.
Drifter Bob
First Post
The Primer of Practical Magic
Greetings spell dabblers and merlmelants,
I am Jeanry Chandler, the author of The Primer of Practical Magic. I'd be glad to answer any questions any of you might have about it. Just reviewing this thread, I can make a couple of points.
1 As one of y'all noticed, there is an error on the Pelgrane page describing the Primer which should be fixed in a day or two. They did all the promotional stuff very last minute, about four months after the actual book was finished (except for the binding, which took forever) so it ws a bit rushed. The book itself, however, was quite carefully edited.
2 There is another mistake in the promotional material which actually made it to the cover of the book, there are actually over 50 magic items, considerably more than it lists.
3 Other than this, it's a great book!
4 The speculations I have read in this thread match pretty closely the way we tried to do the book. To answer another query, it was deisgned BOTH for people who want to run a Dying Earth campaign in D20 as well as people who simply wish to indtoduce some Dying Earth elements into their campaign, whatever flavor it may currently have. There are suggestions on how to implement both approaches, and the material is sufficiently flexible for either use.
5 I do, by the way, highly reccomend the other Pelgrane Press products for D20 use, especially The Excellent Prismatic Spray magazine (notably issues 2, 3, and 4/5) and Cugel's Saga. I haven't yet myself seen the finished product of Turjan's Tome or Demon Realms (though elements of both were included in the Primer)
All those tomes have great flavor text (Cugel's Compendium is a gem for anyone interested in the Rogue class) and The Excellent Prismatic spray has these wonderful little "Cozerners Expedients" which make great adventure seeds. I used two of them in my own fairly traditional D20 campaign last year with great success.
6 As for implementation, we did include that spell failure and success system. I was going to do rules for enhanced persuasion / rebuff etc., based on the personality archetype system in DERPG, but Pelgrane wanted keep that card in their deck, maybe for a followup. However, there are several spells which enhance the ability to coerce, lie, confuse, misdirect, and in other ways mentally befuddle, control, or rebuff friends and enemies alike. I think in all there are at least 8 spells of this type in the Primer. I also included personality archetype spell feats.
The spell failure / success system relies on Spellcraft checks. (If one prefers, one could substitute concentration, but I liked the idea of actual arcane knowledge being necessary.) I imagined that Cugel could concentrate and focus his attention if necessary, but faltered at the level of intellectual virtuosity and precision required to actually cast such powerful spells as the forlorn encystment. Every spell has a potential "Dismal Failure" (backfire) result ranging from inconvenient to life threatening, (which are again optional), as well as the potential for "Illustrious Success", which is usually a minor enhancement on the level of some Metamagic feats. Advanced consideration of the potential consequences of casting a spell are reccomended for the tyro! The more academically "complete" spells may not be as efficacious, but are far less dangerous to cast.
The Vat Creature system is quite functional but of intentionally of byzantine complexity. DM's can feel free to eliminate a step or die roll or two from the process, and / or tinker with the costs, to make it more practical, especially for the less powerful magician. It was made complex, expensive and difficult because it is considered in the world of the Dying Earth RPG to be the penultimate measure of a magicians skill.
As the Primer points out, it is far cheaper to aquire servants in the ordinary way, but then of course, one cannot tinker with their basic design features.
For example, a Kobold could be made for 1080 gp, (including a 500 gp aquamarine) and the cost of 240 experience points, with three skill rolls (Sculpting DC 14, Craft Wondrous Item DC 24, Craft Alchemy DC 25) and the casting of the spells Simulacrum, Prying eyes, Transmute Rock to mud, Stone to Flesh, and Polymorph any object. And even then it's still not certain how it's animation will go or what it's personality will turn out to be.
On the other hand, for the cost of an extra 1,000 Gp, 50 more xp and slightly higher skill checks, you could add wings to your kobold to considerably enhance it's usefuleness as a scout and a soldier. As the primer points out, Kobolds eat literally anything organic, thrive in a wide range of environmental conditions, and breed prodigously. If you created two winged Kobolds, in no time you could have an army of creatures similar to the flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz.
There is also a Vat Creature Feat which makes success far more likely and is basically necessary to ensure successful vat creature manufacture.
I included a fair amount of background flavor text describing the Dying Earth milieux, and pointing out many of the same things you did in this thread about alignment, classes, races, and etc. I didn't ban anything though, (other than simply pointing out that Paladins didn't fit in well at all!) I just pointed out what fit and what didn't, generally. I also didn't ban alignment, I just pointed out there were a lot more neutrals (the law of equivalency is almost the prefect neutral's credo) some lawful (those various little villiages with strict laws and customs) more chaotic. Finally, though neither sorcerers nor druids nor bards really fit in the dying Earth milieux, some of the spells, could be adapted for them in another campaign. The various persuasion spells for example are a natural for Bards.
It's up to the DM and the players to decide just how they want to mix everything in.
Anyway, a few thoughts. Please do not hesitate to ask me questions. I may be able to even post some tidbits from the book to whet your appetite (or nauseate, depending on your personal tastes... application of Colinquace's Tonguesheath is always a reccomended precaution)
J
P.S. Please forgive me in advance for my atrocious spelling, and be assured, Pelgranes editors are more than competent to fix it!
Greetings spell dabblers and merlmelants,
I am Jeanry Chandler, the author of The Primer of Practical Magic. I'd be glad to answer any questions any of you might have about it. Just reviewing this thread, I can make a couple of points.
1 As one of y'all noticed, there is an error on the Pelgrane page describing the Primer which should be fixed in a day or two. They did all the promotional stuff very last minute, about four months after the actual book was finished (except for the binding, which took forever) so it ws a bit rushed. The book itself, however, was quite carefully edited.
2 There is another mistake in the promotional material which actually made it to the cover of the book, there are actually over 50 magic items, considerably more than it lists.
3 Other than this, it's a great book!
4 The speculations I have read in this thread match pretty closely the way we tried to do the book. To answer another query, it was deisgned BOTH for people who want to run a Dying Earth campaign in D20 as well as people who simply wish to indtoduce some Dying Earth elements into their campaign, whatever flavor it may currently have. There are suggestions on how to implement both approaches, and the material is sufficiently flexible for either use.
5 I do, by the way, highly reccomend the other Pelgrane Press products for D20 use, especially The Excellent Prismatic Spray magazine (notably issues 2, 3, and 4/5) and Cugel's Saga. I haven't yet myself seen the finished product of Turjan's Tome or Demon Realms (though elements of both were included in the Primer)
All those tomes have great flavor text (Cugel's Compendium is a gem for anyone interested in the Rogue class) and The Excellent Prismatic spray has these wonderful little "Cozerners Expedients" which make great adventure seeds. I used two of them in my own fairly traditional D20 campaign last year with great success.
6 As for implementation, we did include that spell failure and success system. I was going to do rules for enhanced persuasion / rebuff etc., based on the personality archetype system in DERPG, but Pelgrane wanted keep that card in their deck, maybe for a followup. However, there are several spells which enhance the ability to coerce, lie, confuse, misdirect, and in other ways mentally befuddle, control, or rebuff friends and enemies alike. I think in all there are at least 8 spells of this type in the Primer. I also included personality archetype spell feats.
The spell failure / success system relies on Spellcraft checks. (If one prefers, one could substitute concentration, but I liked the idea of actual arcane knowledge being necessary.) I imagined that Cugel could concentrate and focus his attention if necessary, but faltered at the level of intellectual virtuosity and precision required to actually cast such powerful spells as the forlorn encystment. Every spell has a potential "Dismal Failure" (backfire) result ranging from inconvenient to life threatening, (which are again optional), as well as the potential for "Illustrious Success", which is usually a minor enhancement on the level of some Metamagic feats. Advanced consideration of the potential consequences of casting a spell are reccomended for the tyro! The more academically "complete" spells may not be as efficacious, but are far less dangerous to cast.
The Vat Creature system is quite functional but of intentionally of byzantine complexity. DM's can feel free to eliminate a step or die roll or two from the process, and / or tinker with the costs, to make it more practical, especially for the less powerful magician. It was made complex, expensive and difficult because it is considered in the world of the Dying Earth RPG to be the penultimate measure of a magicians skill.
As the Primer points out, it is far cheaper to aquire servants in the ordinary way, but then of course, one cannot tinker with their basic design features.
For example, a Kobold could be made for 1080 gp, (including a 500 gp aquamarine) and the cost of 240 experience points, with three skill rolls (Sculpting DC 14, Craft Wondrous Item DC 24, Craft Alchemy DC 25) and the casting of the spells Simulacrum, Prying eyes, Transmute Rock to mud, Stone to Flesh, and Polymorph any object. And even then it's still not certain how it's animation will go or what it's personality will turn out to be.
On the other hand, for the cost of an extra 1,000 Gp, 50 more xp and slightly higher skill checks, you could add wings to your kobold to considerably enhance it's usefuleness as a scout and a soldier. As the primer points out, Kobolds eat literally anything organic, thrive in a wide range of environmental conditions, and breed prodigously. If you created two winged Kobolds, in no time you could have an army of creatures similar to the flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz.
There is also a Vat Creature Feat which makes success far more likely and is basically necessary to ensure successful vat creature manufacture.
I included a fair amount of background flavor text describing the Dying Earth milieux, and pointing out many of the same things you did in this thread about alignment, classes, races, and etc. I didn't ban anything though, (other than simply pointing out that Paladins didn't fit in well at all!) I just pointed out what fit and what didn't, generally. I also didn't ban alignment, I just pointed out there were a lot more neutrals (the law of equivalency is almost the prefect neutral's credo) some lawful (those various little villiages with strict laws and customs) more chaotic. Finally, though neither sorcerers nor druids nor bards really fit in the dying Earth milieux, some of the spells, could be adapted for them in another campaign. The various persuasion spells for example are a natural for Bards.
It's up to the DM and the players to decide just how they want to mix everything in.
Anyway, a few thoughts. Please do not hesitate to ask me questions. I may be able to even post some tidbits from the book to whet your appetite (or nauseate, depending on your personal tastes... application of Colinquace's Tonguesheath is always a reccomended precaution)
J
P.S. Please forgive me in advance for my atrocious spelling, and be assured, Pelgranes editors are more than competent to fix it!
Olive
Explorer
Thanks for posting Bob!
The book does sound really cool. I'll have to keep an eye out for it at my FLGS. I think you should get the publisher to send review copies about the place. The places I most often read reviews are here on ENWorld and when Erik Mona does a write up in Polyhedron. I tend not to buy stuff from publisher's I don't know until I've read reviews.
So, has anyone actually bought a copy yet?
The book does sound really cool. I'll have to keep an eye out for it at my FLGS. I think you should get the publisher to send review copies about the place. The places I most often read reviews are here on ENWorld and when Erik Mona does a write up in Polyhedron. I tend not to buy stuff from publisher's I don't know until I've read reviews.
So, has anyone actually bought a copy yet?
redkobold
Explorer
Thanks for joining in Bob!
Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials. Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).
If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.
Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.
The Scaum Valley Gazetteer
The Player's Guide to Kaiin
Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall (Available now)
Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials. Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).
If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.
Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.
The Scaum Valley Gazetteer
The Player's Guide to Kaiin
Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall (Available now)
redkobold
Explorer
Thanks for joining in Bob!
Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials. Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).
If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.
Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.
The Scaum Valley Gazetteer
The Player's Guide to Kaiin
Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall
Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials. Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).
If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.
Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.
The Scaum Valley Gazetteer
The Player's Guide to Kaiin
Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall
Drifter Bob
First Post
The Primer
We sent out two review copies like a week ago, but haven't heard back from the reviewers yet. I hope thats not bad news! I was actually googling for reviews or even just brief first impressions or other reactions when I found this thread. I haven't heard anything yet except from friends, who all love it but they all like Jack Vance a lot. My girlfriend likes it! I think it's cool as hell myself. But we are biased. Is there a regular reviewer here on EN who you think gets the whole Vance thing? My greatest fear is that someone who hates Jack Vance (or thinks only THEY know how to write in the genre) will write a bad review for that reason. Some people on some other forums I visted were kind of hostile about that. Complaining that it reminds them of EGG's writing, that sort of thing.
Another thing I can say is that the focus is low to mid-level, so people who play those 38th level god-characters may not like it as much.
If there is any specific kind of thing people would like to see an example of I could post a few pieces, as I suggested before.
DB
Olive said:
We sent out two review copies like a week ago, but haven't heard back from the reviewers yet. I hope thats not bad news! I was actually googling for reviews or even just brief first impressions or other reactions when I found this thread. I haven't heard anything yet except from friends, who all love it but they all like Jack Vance a lot. My girlfriend likes it! I think it's cool as hell myself. But we are biased. Is there a regular reviewer here on EN who you think gets the whole Vance thing? My greatest fear is that someone who hates Jack Vance (or thinks only THEY know how to write in the genre) will write a bad review for that reason. Some people on some other forums I visted were kind of hostile about that. Complaining that it reminds them of EGG's writing, that sort of thing.
Another thing I can say is that the focus is low to mid-level, so people who play those 38th level god-characters may not like it as much.
If there is any specific kind of thing people would like to see an example of I could post a few pieces, as I suggested before.
DB
Olive
Explorer
Drifter Bob said:
Hey, I hate Vance's writing (and EEG's) but like alot of the ideas and love the idea of wierd wizards. Mostly I'm concerned (no offence!) about the mechanics of it, so that's what I'll be looking for in a review. I don't want a book that will give me ideas that I then have to work through myself. I want a book with cool ideas (like yours certainly will have) and the mechanics for me to bring it into play.
The staff reviewers here at ENWorld are pretty open-minded and even handed in my experience, so I think either Psion of JoeGKushner would be great people to have a look at it for you. I have no idea what those two think of the whole Vancian thing, but you could always ask them i guess?
In terms of a preview, that's another thing that goes a long way to making me interested in a book! I guess a smatering of the spells (say three or four) and the magic items (one or two?) would be fantastic! Just to get an idea of how the design philosophy behind the book works.
